Royal Guard PEND

[ProtectorLordGarmin]

Looking at other discussions the Defender line of units looks a little weak in terms of actual health. Plus, looking at the proposed (and rejected) fire emblem dancer unit made me think about the armoured and Fortress knights as expensive tanky slow units. They would be armoured at first and take like 4-5 turns to produce, and an extra technology to upgrade to Fortress knights. Generals could either be a third tier of that tech tree, or be a hero type unit.
Overall they'd be like a watered down defender-hoplite mix

[Badnorth]

So a shielder/defender/guardian 2.0?

Armoured knight - bad name all knights are armored something like Vanguard will fit imo.
General - a general is a commander of an army, or an army officer of very high rank. A general wouldn't come to a battlefield to fight but will stay on a safe location to plan on tactics and such..
Fortress knight - how about fortress guard ? Since they'll be tanky and won't focus on dealing blows but instead will focus on crowd control and defending.

Also this units will not or only be usefull at securing and defending town centers since conversion is already a great way of dealing with tanky & low spell resistance units like elephant. Unless you add a spell resistance to the units but won't make sense imo If they are only defenders unless if you add a reason if they/why are they devoted to defending.

[Endru1241]

My idea was Royal Guard.
Non-upgradeable european style unit, that replaces usage of spartan hoplite - the same bonuses, movement, resistance and hp.
Power and armors - I thought of different approaches: 13 power, 7/5 armor, affected by blacksmith or 14 power, 8/6 armor unaffected by blacksmith or 14 power, 8/6 armor, affected by blacksmith, but recruitment limited to castle only.
I'll probably do the first one.
But most importantly - I don't have a good image, nor even an idea to make it.

[Badnorth]

Maybe I could help with the sprite I just need a reference

[ProtectorLordGarmin]

Ah, you see, since Fire Emblem doesn't feature any unit conversion aside from conversations, and that itself is limited to only a few enemies, but is certain to work (if you do extra tasks sometimes) I did not factor in that they could be converted. The point about generals being behind the front ines makes sense, and that may be the reason that in fire emblem three houses it was renamed to Fortress Knight. However in previous games there have been points from which the enemy main Lord never moves from, like a throne, making them act as the boss of the battlefield. Such bosses have been Generals in the past titles.
To summarise:
Armoured Knight - You're probably right about the name, and Vanguard does sound like a good alternative
Fortress Knight - Probably the upgrade from the Armoured Knight or whatever it will be called
General - if included at all it should probably be a boss unit, like the Inquisitor.
Vs. Unit Conversion: At Armoured Knight level, a low-mid conversion resistance, which becomes mid-high when becoming Fortress Knight. If included the General would be a boss unit and thus unable to be converted
Production - First 2 can be produced or researched from Castle or barracks, General can only be produced in Castle, and only to replace a lost one.
Drawing reference -look at the ones from FE 6 and 7, and the shield design for the Fortress Knight from 3 Houses
Types: I think one with an axe and one with a spear are the types we should go for when implementing, as sword wielding Armoured Knights were not really present in most FE games, to my knowledge. Axe would function like a swordsman, excelling at crushing structures, whereas the spear one would act like, well, a spearman, effective against cavalry. In addition, they should both have a small ranged attack, perhaps 3 tiles. Throwing a hand axe or a javelin respectively (yes, this is directly from FE) It would have a longer cool down, and do less damage, but it could make them more versatile, because regular defenders do not possess a ranged attack.

[Badnorth]

For that to work it would need a transformation ability I think.

[ProtectorLordGarmin]

Why would it require a transformation? It could be there as a regular ability, like heal or convert, just some ranged ability. Unless you are making the point that they would need to switch weapons to use a ranged attack, but that would be counter-intuitive: I am proposing a tougher unit that takes attacks upfront and strikes back, but also isn't bad vs archers. With only 2 movement, this boi ain't catching up to any archers in the turn after he's attacked. By using the javelin / hand axe throw as a ranged ability he is able to effectively counter archers.

[Badnorth]

I MEAN the trainable at Barracks to castle when at tier 3 they can only be trained at a exact factory I dont think it is possible to change where you can train the unit by changing tiers. Same for the conversion bonuses..for that to work it would probably need a transformation ability or a lot of coding. I am not dev and I am not sure.

You could always ask Stratego (the dev) or the AoS Moderator Endru

[Badnorth]

My suggestion is to limit the tiers by changing the cost of upgrading the unit instead of changing where to train the unit.

Fortress knight - 6 turns
General - 8 turns

And the original the vanguard would cost a 5 turn depending on stats.

[ProtectorLordGarmin]

OK there's some confusion so I hope this clears it up
Armoured / Fortress Knights are two tiers of the same unit. Produced in Barracks and Castles.
General is separate and a boss unit, being powerful, time consuming to produce, and possibly buffing other units, produced in Castles only.

[Badnorth]

Can turn costs and trainable at : (Location) be changed when upgraded?
As far as I know it can't.
@Stratego (dev)

[Endru1241]

It can in engine. Theoritically. Haven't tested.
But not in AoS.
As a design leader I set some ground rules about upgrades (those are mostly what CoolGuy and Stratego was keeping before, so I am just stating it):
- no downgrading stats
- no cost change
- no training place change
- no role change (may only get little better at things that don't belong to the role)
- no drastic image change (at best should be based on previous unit in line)
- no flavour change (e.g. culture, weapon type)

But coming back to the topic:
Why overcomplicate?
First - we need exact role.
We have armored unit with resist and ranged ability.
It's OK - there is already roman pretorian, so why not making european style version of him?
It can be non-upgradable, with 1 upgrade or 2.
I am against 3 unit line, as that should be limited to main units only. This one is more special, so I think even no upgrade version would be good.
Then we need fitting name and images.
As non-upgradable both Vanguard and my own proposition of Royal Guard sounds good - depending on where he would be trained.
Images can be inspired by other media, but trying to create exact copy shouldn't be forced.
At last exact abilities and stats should be disscussed.
I personally think, that crossbow shot seems better than javelin throw - fits more with european style.

[Badnorth]

I have some sprites that I made sometime ago that may suit Royalguard/vanguard.

[ProtectorLordGarmin]

... So you're ignoring what I said?
Wow, thanks, nice to know you all support my idea so much...

[Endru1241]

... So you're ignoring what I said?
Wow, thanks, nice to know you all support my idea so much...

... made me think about the armoured and Fortress knights as expensive tanky slow units. They would be armoured at first and take like 4-5 turns to produce, and an extra technology to upgrade to Fortress knights. ... Overall they'd be like a watered down defender-hoplite mix

... I did not factor in that they could be converted. ... Vs. Unit Conversion: At Armoured Knight level, a low-mid conversion resistance, which becomes mid-high when becoming Fortress Knight. ... In addition, they should both have a small ranged attack, perhaps 3 tiles. Throwing a hand axe or a javelin respectively (yes, this is directly from FE) It would have a longer cool down, and do less damage, but it could make them more versatile, because regular defenders do not possess a ranged attack.

First - we need exact role.
We have armored unit with resist and ranged ability.
...
I personally think, that crossbow shot seems better than javelin throw - fits more with european style.

Please - read the whole topic before writing about being ignored.
Unless you mean graphics?
In this case - you can't demand exact images being made by others. When you have some unit in mind - it's best to create image by yourself.
Here - it's even easier, as QuadrupoleStrat already posted images, (which I hope he won't mind being slightly changed) that can have weapon or some other details switched.
If You yourself lack abilities to make such change - it's best to be polite and hope some pixel artist would change it on your request. In such such case - you can post image depicting it from original media (use insert image button and paste link).

Btw. General should be discussed at separate topic, being different unit.

[Badnorth]

- it's even easier, as QuadrupoleStrat already posted images, (which I hope he won't mind being slightly changed) that can have weapon or some other details switched

Its okay , its an old sprite and I didn't change anything.
It might not fit to what ur trying to fit in cus
The vanguard.png is originally a knight I randomly edited crusader and became an unnamed unit and the Royal guard is king sprite.And the Anonymous is for the Draxolan kingdom guards skinset that was originally a Man at Arms.

[Badnorth]

You can probably make a sprite just by editing existing sprite ( which is easier )
The vanguard.png is an Aos crusader swordsman sprite
The Royal guard is an Aos Swordsman sprite
And DKG broad swordman for anonymous and animation.

[ProtectorLordGarmin]

As a design leader I set some ground rules about upgrades (those are mostly what CoolGuy and Stratego was keeping before, so I am just stating it):
- no downgrading stats
- no cost change
- no training place change
- no role change (may only get little better at things that don't belong to the role)
- no drastic image change (at best should be based on previous unit in line)
- no flavour change (e.g. culture, weapon type)

As non-upgradable both Vanguard and my own proposition of Royal Guard sounds good - depending on where he would be trained.
At last exact abilities and stats should be disscussed.

I said that Vanguard and Royal Guard are the same unit, But Royal Guard is Tier 2. This DOES NOT change where it is trained.
If we even are adding General at this point, it is a BOSS UNIT and is NOT an upgrade of Royal Guard. If you guys think replacing lost boss units like this one should be impossible then we could just make it usable in map editor only.

I never said I wanted an exact copy of the FE designs. I said there was some inspiration that one could take from it.

There will be no cost change from Vanguard to Royal Guard, there will be a tech to research which will make them into Royal Guards. This can be their reason for better resist: they are loyal to their king (or whoever they are defending)

[Endru1241]

It's perfectly viable to be a 2 unit line. Resistance increase is good too, especially, as You want unupgraded unit to already have some.
E.g. 40% upgraded to 70% - enough to not be an easy target for convincers. Or some other values - stats are in the end balanced by cost (and a little by training place).
Like I already wrote - general, as a separate unit should at best have separate topic. It can be commanding unit added to normal games (we currently lack mounted one in european style) or some powerful fun games only unit or even completely absurd map editor only (but that is usually implemented only if some map creator really needs it).

Forgive me if it seemed my lengthy description assumed it's also your idea to have 3 units in line - it didn't. I am just always trying to be fully informative in my posts, especially when it's a long one, requiring some precise info.

[ProtectorLordGarmin]

Well, I would have preferred General to be another tough armoured unit, or we could have two different "General" units, one mounted and one armoured on foot. I don't know. But we have General in the post title, so discussing the General unit(s) would and should fit here.

[ProtectorLordGarmin]

So everyone has forgotten about this? I thought the forum was a place for discussion of topics, not for people to ignore me without a full answer

[Badnorth]

So everyone has forgotten about this? I thought the forum was a place for discussion of topics, not for people to ignore me without a full answer

Endru is kinda busy - Working on a huge update.
He only replies when he has time .

Well, I would have preferred General to be another tough armoured unit, or we could have two different "General" units, one mounted and one armoured on foot. I don't know. But we have General in the post title, so discussing the General unit(s) would and should fit here.

It'd be better if you erase the general on the topic title and create a new topic for the general(s)(to have a fresh start ) mounted is fine, high ranking officer's are commonly on horses to distinguish ranks .

[Badnorth]

Medieval generals is a very high ranking officer.

Mounted
Damage booster
Speed booster
Medium damage
High cost - 7 or 8
Medium health
Medium armor
Very high mental resistance

Drummer + centurion hero hybrid will look cool.

[Endru1241]

So everyone has forgotten about this? I thought the forum was a place for discussion of topics, not for people to ignore me without a full answer

Any of the forumers, including design leader is only a fan of the game, disscussing in his/her own free time.
You can't force people to reply.
Even the dev posts are often ignored, because there is limited number of people with limited time.

Also.
From forum rules:

- Do not post already existing topics/replies (so before starting a new topic, or post a reply, read tru all topics to be sure that your post is not there yet)
- Find the right place for your topic

There is already a topic for general.

[ProtectorLordGarmin]

Two things
First, I assumed that everyone forgot and not that Endru was working on an update, I am sorry for rushing to conclusions.
Secondly there's already a WHAT

[SirPat]

Two things
First, I assumed that everyone forgot and not that Endru was working on an update, I am sorry for rushing to conclusions.
Secondly there's already a WHAT

Its not like we forgot its just that we dont like your idea. if an idea is not liked, what can we reply then?! What do you want I'll reply and tell you that I personally dont like your idea.
As long as im not impressed I wont reply.
And the same for the rest of the forum members.
When an idea aint impressive enough, aint possible, or just stupid there will be some of us that'll help to make your idea better or explain to you why it doesnt fit or unimplementable just like what endru and quadrupoleStrat was doing.

In Conclusion: "We dont forget we're just not impressed. Not all Idea's get implemented but time will tell. Maybe it'll be added one day if there's potential"
-SirPat

[ProtectorLordGarmin]

I already apologised for rushing to conclusions.
If the idea seems bad then yes, help me improve it!
That's the point of us discussing it: it needs tweaking before it can be added.

BUT to clarify is it the first 2 units (Vanguard and Royal Guard) that are not right or is it just my Idea for General which isn't quite satisfactory?

[Squirrel5555]

Well it is just another knight isn't it? Except this time even MORE heavily armoured
And I also don't like the name "vanguard". It has conflicting meanings.

[SirPat]

Well it is just another knight isn't it? Except this time even MORE heavily armoured
And I also don't like the name "vanguard". It has conflicting meanings.

Exactly its just another knight!
We dont need another one. Units should differ from other units. Like giving them abilities or different bonuses or having a different role

Procter, what you are doing is youre making an Extra Heavy Knight

Foot units is as follow:
Light infantry
Medium infantry
Heavy infantry

What your doing is adding a new type, sone kind of Super Heavy infantry which is not needed and Un historical

And Vanguard is the front of the army that was used to skirmish and break the enemy body(part of the army not literally a body) search for more accurate, and Appropriate names first cause those MEGA Heavy knights of yours cant join the vanguard cause their heavily armed which means they can run much becausr of the wait of the armor

If the idea seems bad then yes, help me improve it!
That's the point of us discussing it: it needs tweaking before it can be added.

Here's where you got wrong. Before it can be added? Its more of a If it would be added. Youre Mega knight man is just another knight whatever tweaks you do with it its still just another knight.
You know what that means it's too generic to be added. What I want you to do is make this unit special too make him not some other knight.
Remember it doesnt mean you suggested it that means it'll be added. Change all of these units first give them appropriate names give them roles and dont make them to a generic knight but with more armor make him special to be added

As for general that should be talked about at another topic. And pls dont make a topic filled with 4+ unit suggestions. I myself wont help you to Tweak these units cause as of now I dont see any reason to add them. Thats all.

[Endru1241]

It looks like a foot knight only in the first post. Later this unit proposition is more like roman pretorian, although it could be easily made into something more unique - e.g. by lowering speed to 2, essentially making it pricier shielder with additional properties and ability.
Vanguard just meant army put on the front - skirmishers were rarely despicted as army in european sources (in fact often all non-nobles were ignored, unless directly commanded by one of them).
So it could be defending army (not advancing), depending on tactics.
What's more - in some cultures first line was made from elites with best armor and less experienced warriors suppoerted them from 2nd or third.
So vanguard still makes sense.