Gunpowder units

[StormSaint373]

It seems as if there is a disparity between the newest gunpowder units and the the older ones.

The musketeer and the tanegashima have miss chance with their guns...

Yet as far as the reiter and the strelet is concerned, they do a flat 10 points of dmg, ignoring armor, and never missing...

Need help solving this in one way or the other,

Can we either add miss chance to reiter and strelet . . . Or. . .
Remove miss chance from tanegashima ashigaru and musketeer?

[SirPat]

Just remove miss chance

[Badnorth]

Just remove miss chance

Bruh that'll make guns more powerful than they are now.
Musketeers are a pain to deal with, with or without miss chance.

[SirPat]

then add miss chande to the other units

[Badnorth]

I think it has to be an error with the Json.

[SirPat]

or maybe they forgot

[phoenixffyrnig]

I don't know about the chronology of these units in real life, but I think miss chance is there to reflect the unreliability of early firearms.

Archers miss, but no archery units have a miss chance, do they? Also, accuracy is harder at greater range, but we don't worry about that here. I get the feeling miss chance is not down to the skills of said unit, but down to the fact that with primitive guns you were lucky if you didn't blow your own balls off!

[SirPat]

I do beleive that musketeers should have the least amount of miss chance or maybe non at all since this is the last gunpowder weapon developed at the time span of AoS I havent checked the latest units cause I dont use the dev version but once the update is released Ill think about this topic

[StormSaint373]

Would it be better for the Reiter and the Strelet to have a change stance ability as well?

So that they simply aren't so actively deterring for enemies...

There isn't a lot of anti-spear units that have enough dmg to put down a strelet when each shot from his handgun does 10pts, without missing, out to a range of 5 or 6.
2 shots kill a Spearman and 3 kill a swordsman, EVEN A SPARTAN! As it ignores armor.

So one can simply spam strelets and overpower most any unit in the game. or reiters if the map is large...

[SirPat]

wait?! ignores armor! do all gunpowder units ignore armor? if yes then remove ignore armor for all gunpowder units its too op

[Badnorth]

I think all gunpowder units ignore armor.
Thats why they make the game harder for the enemy or easier for you especially a gunpowder rush at early game or mid game can ruin the fun since the enemy or you will have Musketeers,Reiter,HandGonne elephant etc.

[SirPat]

we need to balance that it should be atleast 50 turns of sword fighting then gunpowder gets invented

[Endru1241]

They are not ignoring armor.
Their damage abilities uses propertyChanger with IS_EFFECT_REDUCED_BY_ARMOR special.
It means damage is reduced by regular armor - just like in Handgonneer (renamed musketeer), Tanageshima, horse and elephant handgoneer case.
They also use the same damage bonuses, so hoplite gets 6 damage from them (10 damage +40% vs heavy infantry -> 14 base, reduced by 8 armor -> 6)
The only real difference is lack of miss chance in ability case.

Unfortunately there is no miss chance dependant on target speed to use. There is only base effect chance to fail, which would be applied even in case of targeted units, which unit has bonus against.
On non-ability gun shooters miss doesn't happen against units, that bonus damage is applied.

Viable counter for gun shooters is light and medium infantry, cavalry. Swordsman upgraded fully - as Man-at-arms has 16 damage, 23hp, 3/2 armor.
This unit gets 7 damage from said 3-turn strelet unit (or 6 in melee) and leaves only 2 hp after attack. All while being 2 turn unit.
Well, in my design the situation would be even worse for strelet, but unfortunately miss chance cannot be uses as of now.

Increasing earliest turn, gunpowder can be researched at is not so bad proposition. Most gunpowder units are actually balanced on late game environment, but I am not sure if late game didn't shift with game development .

[SirPat]

this is off topic but why was the miss chance of the slinger got removed? same with master slinger.

ok good thing thats cleared out that they damage regular armor not p.armor and I think they would be balanced since lets say a gun compared to a heavy crossbow

Gun: eg. Handgonner
has miss chance
no dmg upgrades
affects armor
have bonus vs heavy


Heavy Crossbow: eg. Pavaise Crossbowman
no miss chance
have dmg upgrades
affects p.armor
have bonus vs heavy


if in a late game battle when all units are maxed now and they have Knights with full upgrades. Gunmen, since they affect regular armor and foot units in game have higher armor compared to p.armor a pavaise crossbow man would be more effective than a gunman But due to the gunmen dealing dmg against armor instead of p.armor this makes all shield units to be vulnerable specially skirmishers which are used against archers.

So in conclusion players would fight over time developing their skirmishers and archers until they would replace them to gunmen that have no weakness except for melee(not all) but usage of heavy crossbows would still be in use and skirmishers too but since skirmishers have higher p.armor compared to their armor and archers have little to non and archers like pavaise crossbowmen have higher p.armor compared to armor this makes gunmen a effective against skirmishers and archers all together, and gunmen would also win against skirms and archers compared to price and ease of deployment if you research skirm and archery blacksmith techs to max this unit an opponent would just need to research ballistics and gunpowder and he would have a better unit than yours cause his unit affects regular armor and deals high enough dmg vs light units and have a bonus against heavy units compared to your maxed skirmisher. Same with archers if you trained 4 turn cost pavaise crossbowmen clearly your opponent is training more units than you(handgonner 3 turn cost) yeah he still need to research gunpowder and ballistics to train handgonners but he can deploy other units to kill your pavaise crossbowmen and even when you finished researching all archer blacksmith techs your opponent all ready have gunmen that could counter the pavaise crossbowmans only defence, his p.armor. Since gunmen dmg armor instead of pierce armor this makes him goo against these late game pavaise crossbowmen which is the highest dmg dealing ranged foot unit. This transition from the start of the game we upgrade to get higher p.armor to protect are units from ranged attacks then suddenly we change our army to ranged units that deal dmg to regular armor to counter all of those high p.armor units in late game is such a big part of the game now and I think thats balanced and maybe increase the cost of ballistics and gunpowder by about 2 turns each and I guess that'll be enough and yet people uses money couriers to boost up their techh research.

My conclusion is bigger than my main paragraph abou the topic.

[Endru1241]

But what do you think about miss chance disparity?
Should fail chance be added to abilities or rather speed related miss chance removed from attack based.
Or maybe introduce some tech removing miss chance in all those attack based gun units and make it additional requirement to trqin ability based ones?

[SirPat]

yeah add a tech to remove miss chance and add a tech to give gun abilities