CoolGuy Balancing IMPLEMENTED

[Hyuhjhih]

All you need to do now is to wait till the BIG UPDATE with many more EE coming. Yeah, a button to toggle EE is good as enabling upgrade usable game. But still i dont agree with a buff or nerf in CG's stats nor legendary grade.

And think about once The Real CoolGuy become active again and he would say"What ! Why am i so unpopular. I was once the Coolest Guy here" and may feel very sad.

And yeah, stratego are you still in contact with Coolguy?

[Stratego (dev)]

i must repeat myself again: it should not be op. if you think it is: contact Endru
(as i think it is not even op but it is barely useful... i never build myself to win a game... and no one defeated me by owning and because of owning a coolguy unit)

also again:
"a button to toggle EE is good as enabling upgrade" this will not get implemented, as the main purpose of the EE units will get lost, and also i dont want any more options to create a game - at least not this one (we have crasily too many options already).

[digimon666]

legendary means only one unit can exists in a game from that unit.

Can we compromise about this?
Given easter egg unit where we value the uniqueness, it is hard to measure the op or not the abilty of that unit. I know ambidextra and mineral ore is closest i can compare for this unit
(For me it is broken beyond belief though)
Once again, if this unit dictate the meta and everyone can use it, it will transform into stale meta with mirror match
If only one can use it, then only first turn player can use it (yeah you can kill it, IF you can)

[Endru1241]

It's kind of interesting, that stratego was mentioned twice, despite giving his pretty clear answer the first time, while nobody mentioned me properly.
I'll just repeat what I am constantly reminding - for developer of a free game, time is the priciest resource. Please don't bother him too much. Especially because another, equally important or maybe even more, thing is the will (overall desire to contribute, to create). And annoyance can bring the enthusiasm down significantly.
Stratego - I don't agree with ee being non-fun units, but I respect the decision about concept.
I'll make changes accordingly to this.

@digimon666 I know I may come as incompetent design leader, but honestly - I never never used, seen used (that one would be hard as I don't play much recently and multi is a foreign space for me) , read being mentioned or even noticed that coolguy has production boosting capabilities.
When I looked carefully at aura stats the last time it was at the time of jsonisation, so maybe I quickly copied mend bonus, never noticing it was on under construction units.
Anyway I was 100% sure he only has battle related stats on aura.
So - my solution is bringing reality to exact same place my mind was - changing +200% bonusMendingWhenConstructing to +200% bonusMending.
I am amazed nobody thought of changing this aspect of coolguy.

[DreJaDe]

It's kind of interesting, that stratego was mentioned twice, despite giving his pretty clear answer the first time, while nobody mentioned me properly.
I'll just repeat what I am constantly reminding - for developer of a free game, time is the priciest resource. Please don't bother him too much. Especially because another, equally important or maybe even more, thing is the will (overall desire to contribute, to create). And annoyance can bring the enthusiasm down significantly.
Stratego - I don't agree with ee being non-fun units, but I respect the decision about concept.
I'll make changes accordingly to this.

@digimon666 I know I may come as incompetent design leader, but honestly - I never never used, seen used (that one would be hard as I don't play much recently and multi is a foreign space for me) , read being mentioned or even noticed that coolguy has production boosting capabilities.
When I looked carefully at aura stats the last time it was at the time of jsonisation, so maybe I quickly copied mend bonus, never noticing it was on under construction units.
Anyway I was 100% sure he only has battle related stats on aura.
So - my solution is bringing reality to exact same place my mind was - changing +200% bonusMendingWhenConstructing to +200% bonusMending.
I am amazed nobody thought of changing this aspect of coolguy.

Oh, I thought it was balanced because of so much limitation. like not being able to Garrison and the need to position it last makes its mending capabilities so hard to do. You also have to choose between mending and to do seige but since he cannot enter wagon, it's more harder to do it.

[Endru1241]

I did not design it.
I did not put original limitations.
I cannot find anything on the forum about that.
I wouldn't know.

My main point for removing construction bonus is rather simple - it would prevent me from properly balancing new ee units, as there is not that many options for production boosts.

And maximally utilising such boost actually is a game changer. I don't think ee units should be able to do it.
In my view ee in current design (not fun, legendary, quick to build) should allow new, unique strategies on one front or part of it.

[digimon666]

It's kind of interesting, that stratego was mentioned twice, despite giving his pretty clear answer the first time, while nobody mentioned me properly.
I'll just repeat what I am constantly reminding - for developer of a free game, time is the priciest resource. Please don't bother him too much. Especially because another, equally important or maybe even more, thing is the will (overall desire to contribute, to create). And annoyance can bring the enthusiasm down significantly.
Stratego - I don't agree with ee being non-fun units, but I respect the decision about concept.
I'll make changes accordingly to this.

@digimon666 I know I may come as incompetent design leader, but honestly - I never never used, seen used (that one would be hard as I don't play much recently and multi is a foreign space for me) , read being mentioned or even noticed that coolguy has production boosting capabilities.
When I looked carefully at aura stats the last time it was at the time of jsonisation, so maybe I quickly copied mend bonus, never noticing it was on under construction units.
Anyway I was 100% sure he only has battle related stats on aura.
So - my solution is bringing reality to exact same place my mind was - changing +200% bonusMendingWhenConstructing to +200% bonusMending.
I am amazed nobody thought of changing this aspect of coolguy.

I will never tag someone, especially for those that contribute/ leadr on something i use/enjoy, in my culture thats kind of rude. And no, incompetent people will not listen, for that you have my respect.

What does that mean +200% bonusmending change? I dont really understand is it healing bonus? Thats very welcome change.
Also whats your opinion about +5 power (i forgot the exact number) and +2 range on his siege aura? Lol 3 range ram, balista that as strong, if not stronger than catapult with area damage, 10 range catapult that shoot in the dark and 12 range trebuchet

Another question, whats your opinion on my argument about legendary unit that will never be balanced and always feel unfair?

Unlike some op unit where if imbalanced, it will transform the match into some kind of mirror match up. There is no failsafe like that for legendary unit where if someone use it, no one else can use it.

[Endru1241]

Removing bonus mending under construction would disable faster siege building around him. Instead regular bonus mending would just increase repair speed of these machines to be 3 times as much.

Someone reported +2 range affecting melee siege machines and I was thinking of a solution to that.
The best I could come up to would be separating bonus to melee siege as another aura, e.g. +5 power, +10/0 armor.
Setting it like that nicely fits with repair bonus - coolguy could be protected by armored siege, that are much harder to destroy.

His regular +2 range +5 power should be retained imho to allow unique siege strategy on one front he is present.

How balanced or unbalanced it is - would be a question strictly related to legendary status solution. I plan adding 5+ new ee units (it should be implemented around 2nd-4th my update from now). As ee are planned to be various contributors, each should be legendary, but then there would be enough to allow every player having access to some. Each of these units would retain few points - very hard to destroy (around 15-25 attacks, without healing) unless specific counters are used (counters shouldn't ever be common units, nor capable of being main force - either by poor damage/cost or specialized usage), capable of regular attack balanced to mid game common units, with some ability to uniquely boost category of units (strength of effect balanced to size/utility/usage of said group).
More details in easter egg units topic.

[digimon666]

Do we need to get +2 range AND +5 power? Imo, i prefer to reduce its power if we want to keep the +2 range.

Also, i dunno if we make at same time, but it will be not funny if two people making some ee unit at same round turn, but first player get it and second only waste his tpwn production, i hope there is indication for thaf

[Badnorth]

Also, i dunno if we make at same time, but it will be not funny if two people making some ee unit at same round turn, but first player get it and second only waste his tpwn production, i hope there is indication for thaf

Agreed.

[Endru1241]

Do we need to get +2 range AND +5 power? Imo, i prefer to reduce its power if we want to keep the +2 range.

Would it still be fun if he suddenly lost so many advantages?

Even if it's too much of a boost - it can be used only by 8 stationary or 16 moving siege units with absolutely maximum utilisation. And most importantly - only on one front, that can't be left by him so easily.

And even if it's a little unbalanced - let's work by little steps. I don't want to go over the way and nerf it to being underpowered.
One other point - it's better to balance having a comparison, so let's wait unitl I bring others.

As for notifying player - I have added it to code requests. When and if stratego will have time and will - he'll implement it.

[digimon666]

Ranged unit and + range ability in grid based, turn based game is inherently strong aspect that must be carefully balanced. I hope you compare it with crossbow archer/arbalest vs elite longbowman, what is the difference and cost to get +1 range. Even with crossbow archer, to get +3 hp, +2 power and +1 range it need 1 extra cost. And in future (arbalest), it is reduced to +1 power +1 range for extra 1 cost.

I will not comment about future where we will get ee unit each, but for now, this unit is toxic. I prefer to nerf it to oblivion and bring it back when we have other option to choose

[Endru1241]

Blacksmith or unit upgrades affect all units on map.
Coolguy affects only adjacent.
It's huge difference.
Easter eggs are supposed to be fun and useful.
Not OP, not UP.

As I see it - you may be acting in spite, because of bad memories, related to this unit.
Nerfing anything into being not used is not really that much different from removing it.
I don't think it's good for a game.

[DreJaDe]

Blacksmith or unit upgrades affect all units on map.
Coolguy affects only adjacent.
It's huge difference.
Easter eggs are supposed to be fun and useful.
Not OP, not UP.

As I see it - you may be acting in spite, because of bad memories, related to this unit.
Nerfing anything into being not used is not really that much different from removing it.
I don't think it's good for a game.

Aaaand.. you also have to position and set the seige first then you have to put EE next to even make it work. For AOS that's a lot of time for a cavalry to destroy them all to more a cavalry in cart.

[digimon666]

Yeah maybe i am acting out of spite since my main point of this thread is indeed deleting this unit from mp. So that's given.


One sided unit with unique value will never be balanced and always feel unfair whether fighting or using him
This is what i enforce the most when discussing balance. Everyone should have an option of using him in any given match. At worst, those op unit will transform mp match into boring mirror match.
There is no option for this categories of unit for this kind of unit.

"Fun" unit should not become the option in the meta where the game turned into making coolguy and locking out the option of enemies making coolguy. (even if it is balanced in grand scheme of thing)
If only one player use it in given match, imo it is also not fun.

We are not just talking about op or up, we are also talking about fair or unfair.

Even if we bring his level into peasant with stone thrower level with reduced stats, this thing still not fair. But at least that way, it will not disrupt serious game.

[Aral_Yaren]

Devs, how about EE cannot be healed? They are special units after all, and honestly it's not that op to remove healing property just like raging berzerk.

And as more ee comes out, it's still fair because CG for example trainable only 2 turns.

[Hyuhjhih]

Devs, how about EE cannot be healed? They are special units after all, and honestly it's not that op to remove healing property just like raging berzerk.

And as more ee comes out, it's still fair because CG for example trainable only 2 turns.

Thats a fair one. And also i could suggest only two ee alive on battle field , one for each , once more ee join the party. So once the ee die, others can simply train it if they have no other ee alive.

[Inbreak]

I'll join the discussion and support digimon point of view.
Some of you say that their opponents can't beat them even with Coolguy. But we have some conventionalities: we don't know skill level of each others opponent and map features.
I consider myself as a descent mp opponent knowing a lot of tricks and strategical decisions and how to counter it. And when you are facing another descent opponent in MP key to win is making valuable moves. By valuable i mean the most effective ones in terms of production, trades, construction and so on. Every mistake counts.
So let's take a closer look on what we have for 2 turns of production: obscene armor, especially piercing, making it invulnerable for ranged attacks. Twice more than shielder and ten! times more melee armor making it also invulnerable to axethrowers and swordsman. So the 2 turn niche is dominated (and even 3 and even 4 turn niche - only assasin can deal with it fast enough. OH WAIT - it needs twice more time to produce assasin than a coolguy and simple watchtower won't just let you do it). Lets move on. There are of course counters - dogs, rangers, rams. You would say: "HA, train three dogs and bite this coolguy till death". But let's remember we are not playing against a coolguy which is wandering around the map willing to be killed by a random dog - he's hiding behind towers, siege machines and a lots of annoying living stuff in the frontline. So we have a ranger option. And we need just three of them to kill coolguy at once. BUT WAIT ONCE AGAIN - its 12! turn of value to deal with 2 turn unit. And let me not describe problems with battering ram which would be wiped away by those siege machines with +2 range and +5 attack around coolguy.
Now we are getting closer to another issue. How many time does it take to make your archers +2 range? 11 turns. How many time do you need for your siege machines to get +2 range? 2 turns. Seems legit. And again you should say - that's just 4 units around him. It can be up to 8 (almost impossible i agree). But what is 4-6 siege machines firing from the fog of war towards defending side? It's demolition. And provided with proper buffs (travel buff from bard) it's just too powerful weapon to outzone opponent on maps of about 30x30 and larger.
Even if it will cost 10 like inquisitor i don't understand why it should be so unique that only one player (definetely the last joined) can have it. I've already noticed one guy who enters the last slot in the game and produces coolguy immediately.
I don't blame anyone for implementing this unit, I have it myself, it's fun, but in current state of competetive MP it should be excluded.

[digimon666]

Thank you for supporting me, let me chip in. It is not +2 range only, it is +2 range AND +5 power,

I agree that blacksmith upgrade is applied to all, and it is aura.. So lets see.

How to get +1 atk and +50 resistance aura? 3 turn unit on 6 turn upgrade
How to get +1 atk and +1 armor aura? 3 turn unit with stats of defender or 6 turn unit with stats of heavy knight
How to get + 2 atk and 50% resist aura? 7 turn wih stats of heavy knight. (Only for extra +1 atk we got extra 4 turn cost, albeit with increased stats and without upgrade).
How to get +1 range on roman ranged unit? 5 turn upgrade on 6 turn heavy knight
How to get 50% heal bonus, 30% resist +1 power? 7 turn unit with stats of cavalier behind mega building
How to get +2 range and +5 atk with bonus construction (later be nerfed to repair) 3 times better on siege aura?
2 turn unit with stats harder to kill than killing guardian, and oh, only for first player that build it only.
Everything seems balanced, nothing is wrong here.

Ee unit should not be op nor up, yeah whatever. either way ee unit is not fun. Might as well give someone hack since ee is "secret unit"

[Badnorth]

It is already nerfed btw.

[digimon666]

It is already nerfed btw.

Whats the nerf, i dont see it, i doubt it is enough.

[Hyuhjhih]

And think about once The Real CoolGuy become active again and he would say"What ! Why am i so unpopular. I was once the Coolest Guy here" and may feel very sad.

I hope this wont be happening with the nerf. I feel sad for a 4 turn coolguy. May his json RIP (rest in pixels) in my match till i get used of the new coolguy version.

[Badnorth]

It is already nerfed btw.

Whats the nerf, i dont see it, i doubt it is enough.

Version log.

Turn cost 2 to 4.
Construct aura changed to repair.
Melee siege no longer receives +2 rng but gets 10+ armor besides coolguy.
idk if i have missed something, check version log for more info.

[digimon666]

Thank you for supporting me, let me chip in. It is not +2 range only, it is +2 range AND +5 power,

I agree that blacksmith upgrade is applied to all, and it is aura.. So lets see.

How to get +1 atk and +50 resistance aura? 3 turn unit on 6 turn upgrade
How to get +1 atk and +1 armor aura? 3 turn unit with stats of defender or 6 turn unit with stats of heavy knight
How to get + 2 atk and 50% resist aura? 7 turn wih stats of heavy knight. (Only for extra +1 atk we got extra 4 turn cost, albeit with increased stats and without upgrade)
How to get +1 range on roman ranged unit? 5 turn upgrade on 6 turn heavy knight
How to get 50% heal bonus, 30% resist +1 power? 7 turn unit with stats of cavalier behind mega building
How to get +2 range or +10 armor and +5 atk with (nerfed to repair) 3 times better on siege aura?
2 turn (edited: 4 turn unit) with stats harder to kill than killing guardian, and oh, only for first player that build it only.
Everything seems balanced, nothing is wrong here.

Ee unit should not be op nor up, yeah whatever. either way ee unit is not fun. Might as well give someone hack since ee is "secret unit"

My playstore still doesnt give me update, so i still dont get to test it

That melee siege armor is kinda..... Wait does it still online inside wagon? Or ram/siege tower (if he can enter it)

Ok now, coolguy is transitioned from "typo"ed broken unit into.... Broken unit.
I already give the math above with aura comparison, so i hope we keep this discussion ongoing

And dont associate fun with one sided overpowered brokenness.

[Badnorth]

Coolguy can't come in any carriers, even buildings.
That already is a disadvantage. Melee siege buff will probably be underused, Coolguy isn't meant to be in the frontlines so i doubt he'll make melee siege machines armoured long enough, reason is he'll be targeted instead of the siege machine.

[digimon666]

Coolguy can't come in any carriers, even buildings.
That already is a disadvantage. Melee siege buff will probably be underused, Coolguy isn't meant to be in the frontlines so i doubt he'll make melee siege machines armoured long enough, reason is he'll be targeted instead of the siege machine.

Tested, he can still enter caravel, nevertheless i agree about melee armor argument

Let me laugh on 10 turn heavy catapult raining demolition with buffed range and atk though

[Badnorth]

He can enter caravel? Then that is a bug.

[Stratego (dev)]

Ok folks, lets suspend this coolguy topic, as i am getting frustrated

coolguy stats already changed
(actually more than i ever wanted to... and i am afraid with the new stats it will be NEVER trained by anyone being not so worthy for that cost),

let us use it for at least 3 months(!) before posting anything about coolguy and about being "broken"

ok?
thanks!

[digimon666]

Just get into the balance change and test it myself, so far.. i am dissappointed, let me bring the math since you want it to be balanced around other unit.

How to get +1 atk and +50 resistance aura? 3 turn unit on 6 turn upgrade
How to get + 2 atk and 50% resist aura? 7 turn wih stats of heavy knight. (Only for extra +1 atk we got extra 4 turn cost, albeit with increased stats and without upgrade thing)
How to get +1 atk and +1 armor aura? 3 turn unit with stats of defender or 6 turn unit with stats of heavy knight
How to get +1 range on roman ranged unit? 5 turn upgrade on 6 turn heavy knight
How to get 50% heal bonus, 30% resist +1 power? 7 turn unit with stats of cavalier behind mega building
How to get (+2 range or +10 armor), +5 atk with repair 3 times better on siege aura?
4 turn unit with stats harder to kill than killing guardian, and oh, only for first player that build it only.

I already bring the math to the table as required when we balance this thing so please comment it.
In my opinion the real balance change that i see is only increase his turn from 2 to 4 and reduce health recovery which is negligible (i consider that construction nerf should not exist from start since endru said it is a "bug"). 3 range ram is laughable but thats not his main forte, the main problem is:
10 range buffed heavy catapult and 12 ranged trebuchet raining destructiion from the dark

[Stratego (dev)]

please read my last post...