Nomadic camp

[godOfKings]

A structure to train nomadic units
Carry capacity: 3
Spell: tranform to caravan
Current ideas:
nomadic footman
Nomadic archer
Nomadic horseman
raider
fire archer
Mongolian horsearcher
Tech: Upgrade to mongudai

Speciality: Can transform into a wagon/caravan of sorts, the wagon will have 3 speed and all stats will b same, while it is wagon its production will b stopped, this wagon can also move through forest but cannot carry siege units, the main flavor of nomads is that they migrate, so u have a migrating factory building

but this factory only makes units specialised in raiding and pillaging

[godOfKings]

its an old idea connected to this warriors of the east

[Endru1241]

The idea is great, although it would need extensive testing to make sure it works.
But I disagree with any kind of additional workers. And with training them on factories for war units.

[godOfKings]

This worker cannot make siege units, only siege mantlet and more nomadic camp, mainly they specialise in attacking enemy base from flanks but very weak defensively and currently no anti cav unit (the siege mantlet is for fire archer) if anyone focuses only on nomads he will lose to aggressive opponents who make high HP heavy units

[Endru1241]

It's recerse actually - If this worker would only be needed for nomad camps, then there is absolutely no reason to build more than one - laborers are perfectly capable to finish building.
I just don't see sufficient justification to create new unit - it's only one building.

[godOfKings]

But the camp can make this worker in regions where there is no tc, don't forget it can move through forests that cannot b moved by wagons so it will take too long to send laborers far away

[godOfKings]

U r only thinking of overall gameplay, not the very specialized use and flavor of this camp, its not for open field maps

[Endru1241]

So You say his only specialization is being buildable by factory.
If any unit capable of building things will be trainable in factories -it will be used for building catapults.
That is the reason I'm so against normal factories building workers.

And if nomad camp wouldn't be able to train nomad worker, then nomad worker is useless.

[makazuwr32]

Than what about nerfing catapult's primary damage but increasing catapult's bonuses to buildings so it will do same (or close to) damage to them?

In aof we already made this change.

This will make catapult spam not so op in general and it would be more profitable to build other buildings/units as well.

[godOfKings]

hmm u r right, purpose of nomad worker was to have easy access to workers in places it is difficult to send wagons, not help in making siege,

so we can make it not affected by ambidextria tech,
have same mend rate as laborer (7)
same stats as laborer

or we can make another factory for making workers, there was an accepted suggestion i think

[godOfKings]

ah found it, but its in wrong topic lol, can u put it in structures? @Endru1241
shovel

if this is implemented (along with upgrade of worker) then there is no reason to nerf nomad mend rate or weaken nomad camp

[Endru1241]

Than what about nerfing catapult's primary damage but increasing catapult's bonuses to buildings so it will do same (or close to) damage to them?

In aos we already made this change.

This will make catapult spam not so op in general and it would be more profitable to build other buildings/units as well.

We are discussing AoS right now. Catapult main damage is 22 (lowered from 33), but I left aoe damage at the same level - 11.

hmm u r right, purpose of nomad worker was to have easy access to workers in places it is difficult to send wagons, not help in making siege,

so we can make it not affected by ambidextria tech,
have same mend rate as laborer (7)
same stats as laborer

or we can make another factory for making workers, there was an accepted suggestion i think

If we do it, then nomad worker once again looses it's niche.
That's why I'm against any new workers - it just complicates things.

[godOfKings]

its ok, historically nomad didnt survive in their old life style of pillaging for long, they either disappeared in the annals of history, or became more civilised (like mongols conquering and settling in china) its a specialised tactic in large forested map for early gameplay, we can even design skirmish maps giving nomads an edge

[makazuwr32]

Than what about nerfing catapult's primary damage but increasing catapult's bonuses to buildings so it will do same (or close to) damage to them?

In aos we already made this change.

This will make catapult spam not so op in general and it would be more profitable to build other buildings/units as well.

We are discussing AoS right now. Catapult main damage is 22 (lowered from 33), but I left aoe damage at the same level - 11.

I meant "aof" ofc, sorry.

We have lowered there damage of catapults down to 16 at max level and 12 at base.

[DreJaDe]

Don't really know how other nomad buildings work but I made a mongol Yurt

[L4cus]

Why would nomads build? They are nomads...
I get what u say, but having a buildier for a nomad faction is just contradictory (i think)

[godOfKings]

No nomad worker then, send regular worker for watever purpose, wen suggesting this idea i actually forgot that regular worker can also b carried on caravan, anyways this will b a factory that can move and b carried by transport ships, so u dont need to delete it if front line is too far, a ready made archery range will always follow the front line so u can quickly make new units to reinforce the frontline, it needs more units

Now that this has a building its time to sort out all disagreements, next we need mongolian horseman upgrade image and also transform to caravan image

My main idea for nomadic camp was since it can move through forests, if a map has forested area completely flanking enemy position, and they dont expect any factory to b built there or enemy army coming from there so they have weaker defense, u can totally surprise the enemy by making a bunch of raiding units then destroying their vulnerable factories, so first u place a nomadic camp, then make some nomad workers then make more nomad camps and build a large army then attack, provided enemy player didnt see ur position, but all these can b done with regular worker too so i m removing nomad worker production

[Endru1241]

I am not sure if I saw that before, but as a general rule - buildings capable of carry shouldn't be buildable on forests.
Especially, as there is an option to remove forests now.
So this factory in caravan form would have similar disadvantages in movement as wagon.
Nomads are always kings of plains after all - they don't need special advantage in forested areas.

Btw. I am not 100% sure it would be counted as a factory in caravan form and it has to for balance purposes (or there would have to be a check preventing transformation if limit met, but I like first option better).

[godOfKings]

Wasnt there something like is building counts as factory condition? May b if we try making caravan have that condition with movement range, it might work

[Endru1241]

I was thinking of the same - there is a spec for that.
But I am not sure it will work for non-building (and it's hard coded what engine sees as a building). It just needs to be tested.

[godOfKings]

Like how standing siege units r considered building?

[Endru1241]

Yeah - I think it just 0 movement check.

[L4cus]

thats true! the game recognise something as building by the speed (if 0 then it is a building...) that happens with pavise, siege machines, random recruitment, etc etc

[godOfKings]

but we dont need to recognise caravan as building, as long as it takes factory pop, i hope factory and building r considered separate

[L4cus]

so the builder option should be the deplyed camp, so it can succesfully be recognised as structure, then u can pack it

[Hyuhjhih]

Wait a minute, has anyone checked on giving factories a movement with triggers? I DID. A moving barrack!!!

So , this info might help here.
But, as an opinion, getting this on road, without a factory tag, will not count to limit, so an imbalance in unit count can be expected. And that would be bad idea.

So, from my trigger experiment i am using for a campaign map i am working on, getting speed>0 will still consider it as factory. And its all matter of defining a factory first and getting speed in stats, so the game still read it as a factory that can move.

[godOfKings]

I already mentioned that the transformed caravan should b defined as factory in the json, the question is whether the game engine will accept a factory that is not building

[L4cus]

yurt
cost 4
produces basic sttepe units: skolotoi (scythians), nomadic peasants, levy horsemen

horde tent
cost 7
produces all sttepe units and techs

[godOfKings]

Wat about the nomadic camp idea that can transform into caravan so it is a mobile factory?

[Endru1241]

And poof - merged.

As for original concept of nomadic camp - it needs mobile image.