UD 1 turn unit needs a nerf — IMPLEMENTED

[DreJaDe]

It's much more useful than skeleton warrior already

It's health is so high, and the attack is really nice.

It can counter archer because of its range armor.

It's also immune to fire unlike skeleton warrior

It can also walk on water

It's stats is so close to skeleton warrior

-6 to HP, -4 to health. That their difference.

All that for a 1 turn unit

From most races 1 turn unit is really different from 2.

It's only downside is it's not cavalry.

I never complained about other 1 turn unit but this one is really different
I think it'd health should only be comparable to human one

And it's range armor should only be 4
Like seriously, comparing the dif of 1-2 turn units for other races will only result to UD being the closest one to it's 2 turn counterpart but almost 10% (made the number up) difference of all stats

Comparing to other races. Elves are balanced because it can easily be killed.

Goblin is kinda OP but well balanced considering it's an Orc. Still pretty manageable.

Humans, are the standard though they have three version but still pretty manageable.

UD is just the only one which has this much advantage.

[Savra]

The zombie actually has no bonuses, plus since it doesn't have the same upgrades style as other races.

It's only effected by 1 upgrade, so in a way it can kinda get away with slightly better stats too.

Skeleton swordsman has better attack, health, armour (slightly), and bonuses. Making it slightly better at base, and even better at max.

[DreJaDe]

The zombie actually has no bonuses, plus since it doesn't have the same upgrades style as other races.

It's only effected by 1 upgrade, so in a way it can kinda get away with slightly better stats too.

Skeleton swordsman has better attack, health, armour (slightly), and bonuses. Making it slightly better at base, and even better at max.

I do understand the logic but others also dont have any bonuses but to an argument, it's stats in it itself is like a bonus.

I think then just having their own upgradeable stats would be better than it being like that.

From what I see, most races besides the the Dwarf and Scale have a pretty good early and late game.

UD though kinda broke that with this.

Spammable early units that would beat their 2 turn counterpart.

From what I see
Most races have pretty good balance with their x2 cost unit.

Like (2) 1 turn unit can't beat (1) 2 turn unit. And (2) 2 turn unit can't beat (1) 4 turn unit unless it's a legit counter.

But here, it's pretty much not the case.
2 zombie could beat 1 skeleton. Scaling wise, it's not a good scale at all.

Well, for me the case is with elves to which elves cannot counter it all in small maps.

I really suggest making it more vulnerable as a 1 turn unit.

[makazuwr32]

I'd say p.armor can be lowered for zombie and maybe attack but nothing else. -3 for both.

Also zombie must have 0% spell resist, not 100% like it has now

Zombie is unique feature of undeads as great 1 turn unit, same as 2 turn cost caster with double strike for humans.

Also. Before upscale zombie had 17 hp and 6 attack compared to skeleton warrior's 15 hp and 7 attack.

[DreJaDe]

Zombie back the is 2 turns though.

Their basically the same with Skeleton being able to upgrade.

And if I'm not wrong, zombie even have poison attack.

But yeah, I think I could already agree with that.

Though I would say that it's really a great tank for its cost.

I would also agree to that 100%Spell resist, I just didn't put it since when I'm thinking of this, I focus more that it can't be burned.

[Savra]

Lol, the burn part actually was an accident on my part when I redid the categories and bonuses, but I remember mak wanted them to be immune to that so I just left it that way.

I can downscale it with those though, since it's not too big of a downscale.


Basically undeads are supposed to use numbers over quality, aside from magic, this is there second best advantage so if you're being overrun by them, then technically they're falling through with how they're designed.

Granted though, I still feel elves could use a ranged aoe unit to help counter such issues, that doesn't have a cool down. I'm considering a ent unit for this problem.

[makazuwr32]

One of aoe units will be glade protector with those empowered whirl abilities.

[Savra]

I'm referring to ranged.

[makazuwr32]

Elven captain is supposed to get later new ability to empower archers in some range.

She will give archers in range 2 +1 attack range and +1 action at cost of dodge ranged and speed. If coupled with treetop archery and several outposts this can give to lots of elves bonus action.

[DreJaDe]

One last offer.

Reduce Zombie's sight to only 3.

[makazuwr32]

That is fine for me.

[Anchar]

So will you put them back on fire? And I also think that they should not be stronger than 1 running human. Maybe it's better to do standard 3 stages for them?

As far as elves are concerned, isn't there a lot of good things added to them? I'm glad that the orcs are finally not in the first place, but that does not mean that you need to launch the elves into space.

[makazuwr32]

No stages for them.
It is fine for them to have higher health than human.

No they will not be burnable anymore.

As for elves — let me clear some misunderstanding:
There were lots and lots of stuff planned for elves before alex retired and some of even was close to be implemented.

Right now alas we are concentrated on dwarves and scalefolks.
For example we are prepairing ranged siege for dwarves and air fleet.

We still have in plans some stuff to add for orcs as well. Not only for balancing, for expanding as well. Ogres, mertrolls (water trolls, will be vulnerable to poison but immune to fire), mounted olog hais, several uruks...

After we will get dwarves and scalefolks out of wip status we will work semi-equial (depending on amount of ideas for races) on every race.

[Anchar]

It seems strange to me that they do not burn while all the others are on. Plus, what are you planning to do with zombie poison bite technology?

[makazuwr32]

What's with poison bite of zombies? Is something wrong with it? If not than we will keep it as it is right now probably. Maybe only lock it behind cannibalism tech first.

Not all undead units are burnable anyway — all cursed knights are immune to fire, necromancer is immune to fire (because he is alive), zombie dragon is immune to fire (and any other zombie-based units in future), phantoms are immune to fire.
Fire is a treat only for skeletons, mummies (later will be a full sub) and vampires. For other undead units it should not be.

[Anchar]

With the poison, it is not okay that it stacks and deals 10 damage per turn, which makes a crowd of zombies very good at spamming, and it costs less than an Orcish one, I remember in a similar skill of the orcs (in 2 turns) you wanted to reduce the damage of the poison to 4. Yes, I think this technique should be hidden away.

I did not say that everything. The units you listed for non-burning are expensive units + logically more appropriate, I think that zombies are closer to skeletons and vampires than phantoms (and they are dead).

And don't forget they still walk on water (which they often like to mention when they say that the undead are strong), unlike phantoms (although in theory even phantoms could walk underwater)

And they also have cannibalism, which suggests that this crowd can be treated by the butcher's zombie, which also does not burn ... while I was writing this message, it turned out that a wooden cart can ride under water (like a submarine) and cannot burn , it's just an explosive mixture.

[makazuwr32]

Orcs deal more raw damage than zombies.
Zombies will have 15 attack at base and 18 with that tech.
Orcs at base have 36 attack and 54 when maxed on their basic melee unit.

Orcish poison later will just be non-stackable with itself.
Other traits it will have will be same as normal poison.

About zombies: they are logically undead humans. With flesh and such. Why should they burn? If they bur than orcs, elves and humans also must be burnable.
Do not say that it is canonical or something like that.

If it will be fine for you to receive damage from water for phantoms than we can add water walking for them. Like 30% of max hp per water tile (they become rusty).

As for butcher i think it is fine to make it land only unit. Cost must be reduced alas.

[Anchar]

I wrote about poison damage, not just physical damage.

Orcish poison later will just be non-stackable with itself.
Other traits it will have will be same as normal poison.
Will the zombie poison stack?

Skeletons are just bones. Why should skeletons burn? Vampires are also flesh and bone why should they burn?
Do not say that it is canonical or something like that.

As for butcher i think it is fine to make it land only unit. Cost must be reduced alas.
Maybe it should also be made a burning unit? Or is the burning tree also not canon?

[makazuwr32]

Vampires' natural enemy is fire and sun (alas we do not have day/night cycles so only fire).
Bones also burn fine alas skeletons get only 5 damage instead of 10 from burning.

Poison damage is fine on zombies. They are melee units and alas they cost 1 turn in mid-late game they are easily dealt with. As for early game — if that tech will be locked behind not that useful early game cannibalism tech than it will bemoce less op.
Humans on their 1 turn militias have now passive burning weapon without any techs. Did they become op counter against trolls, skeletons or ents?

Also just a reminder: all weapon on-hit effects are applied only on attack of unit IF unit successfully lands a hit. If unit counters enemy attack OR misses enemy effect is not applied.

If you so troubled about 1 turn zombies being still op than we can add some miss chance (multiplyable by speed of enemy unit). Maybe 3-4% chance — against cav unit with speed 5 it will have 15-20% miss chance and against speed 3 infantry 9-12%.

Also about burning:
Later we will add more elements including holy and unholy and according on-hit weapon effects.
And ofc holy weapon will be especially effective against skeletons and zombies. Dot damage for holy on-hit effect is confirmed.

[Anchar]

I asked not to talk about canonicity (the sun, etc.), zombies in some universes are also afraid of light and even more so fire; bones do not burn at all, especially from fiery arrows.

I didn't know about the human fire damage.

Instead of all this, I would rather like the zombies to burn, especially the butcher with the cart. But no difference.

[makazuwr32]

They will take damage over time from holy type on-hit weapon later.
And that holy weapon will be easier to obtain than fire (since it will be castable onto other units and will be available on healer and mounted healer, you only will need research first). This effect will be castable onto any melee or ranged unit.

[makazuwr32]

Poisonous bite will be locked behind cannibalism.
Also zombie stats are nerfed now.

Implemented.