PRI#2 Hamletback Goblin Fall IMPLEMENTED

[Aral_Yaren]

Concern: I'd stated somewhere how OP even a single Hamletback Goblin Fall could be for Ork. They can abuse Goblin Grenade (done, ofc by that almost free Goblin Spiker) to bomb Hamletback then get at least 3 fresh Goblin Spiker. In fact, they can do this methode ALL DAY to get so many Goblin Spiker in just 1 turn. Those Goblin Spiker can be destroyed to get corpses for Looting Goblin (that means so many production speed boost for FREE and for GRANTED) or even more, to be sacrificed to summon Ork dragon.

Solution: the only way is to erase this OP attribute at all.

[Laxus]

The only use of Hamletback right now is to summon those spikers. If we remove that attribute no one will train that unit. That being said, I do agree that the current bombing strategy is too OP. In my opinion, instead of removing spiker spawn ability, the number of spikers spawned can be reduced to a maximum of 1. Another possibility is to increase the cooldown time and unlock time for corpse looting ability of goblins

[makazuwr32]

Corpse looting specifically will be moved to new unit from all goblins — it is too op to have that on all goblin units.

Goblins falling — well that's the point of this unit. Without it Hamletback is just rather weak and not that useful giant. It is same as if you will state that "raise dead of lich has too wide range thus it is op and must be removed" while it is core ability of that unit why you train it in the first place.

Alas i must admit that i doubt that grenade is that useful as ability so might be better to replace or just remove it. Will consult with other players about grenades.

[DreJaDe]

I don't know if this already how it works but.

1. Just make the spikes always level 1 even when hamlet ack it upgraded.

2. Make hamletback not hittable by grenade

3. Make hamlet back ability a searchable tech instead.

4. Disable summoned goblins for 1-2 turns when spawned.

5. Summon the goblins not on full health.

The suggestions can be mixed depending on the balance needed.

[makazuwr32]

2nd probably will be best one.

[Stratego (dev)]

i like #1 too.

[makazuwr32]

1 is also fine but i'd say 2nd will be best one since other ways of summoning them on your own will be fireballs/thunderstorms which for sure will hit at least 1 of those goblins, while being available only on 5 turn cost warlocks and witches and requires tech to unlock.

Maybe even in future we will give some bonus for magic damage against hamletbacks so you will do more damage than you can heal (reminder that all % based direct healing will be moved to sub, orcs will get only regular hdaling similar to humans and other races have).

[Savra]

I'd go with #2

[Stratego (dev)]

and #2 means that allies will not get hurt by grenade? right? (so not only hamletback but non of the allied units)

[Stratego (dev)]

actualyl i dont really like the idea as from now we can not make any effect that hurts allies too...
we lose flexibility and combination possibilities.

so i would prefer #1 or some new idea as that will not affect future units and abilities either.

maybe dropping vanishing goblins?

[DreJaDe]

actualyl i dont really like the idea as from now we can not make any effect that hurts allies too...
we lose flexibility and combination possibilities.

so i would prefer #1 or some new idea as that will not affect future units and abilities either.

maybe dropping vanishing goblins?

That vanishing goblins might be the best one...

The problem is how long...
Maybe 2-3 turns if it's levels with hamlet.

[makazuwr32]

actualyl i dont really like the idea as from now we can not make any effect that hurts allies too...
we lose flexibility and combination possibilities.

so i would prefer #1 or some new idea as that will not affect future units and abilities either.

maybe dropping vanishing goblins?

We can't make effect that does not hurt allies but we can make effect that does not hurt specific units regardless of if they are allies or enemies — for example all air units will not be affected by earthquake.
Same way we may exclude specifically hamletbacks from goblin grenades.

[Stratego (dev)]

"regardless of if they are allies or enemies" ??

this is not logical that an enemy grenade can not damage hamletback either.

this way, i do not support the idea .

[Savra]

What about based on damage amount?

[Stratego (dev)]

what u mean? can u give example?

[Savra]

Well, goblin grenade deals 30 dmg currently, at aoe 1.

If we set that the ability has a dmg reduction of 50% and remove all abilities from spikers, then we could set for hamletbacks on 16+ dmg will drop goblin spikers.


But probably the best part would just be removing spikers abilities entirely.

[makazuwr32]

I think spikers must keep grenades.
Unless we will change how grenades are working and on whom they are presented.

[Savra]

Well, goblin grenade is pretty good, so it's probably better that it be left to 2 cost and higher goblins as 1 cost is more like a rabble of goblins.

[Savra]

Anyway, aside removal of the abilities, this should be fine.

At this point I'd say most races could probably use similar effects on some new units, so long as dropped units don't exceed cost 1 (therefore, no special bonuses or outstanding stats).

[makazuwr32]

Well, goblin grenade is pretty good, so it's probably better that it be left to 2 cost and higher goblins as 1 cost is more like a rabble of goblins.

I was thinking that instead of giving goblin grenade to every single goblin we must give it only to 2+ turn cost non-worker and non-caster goblins.
Also maybe change grenade so it will become more powerful on higher tier goblins and reduce cost to research it.

Merblins in this case will get their own variant of grenade (both grenades will be reseached and unlocked via same tech).

[DreJaDe]

Maybe just make a separate unit at this point that will only have it like the petsrdier in aos.

[makazuwr32]

No. I want to keep this ability as racial trait — same as elves have dodges on actual elves, orcs have poison weapon on their melee units or trolls have passive regen.

[DreJaDe]

No. I want to keep this ability as racial trait — same as elves have dodges on actual elves, orcs have poison weapon on their melee units or trolls have passive regen.

I though their traits equal to other races was their hp being the same with humans.

[makazuwr32]

Goblins in aof are more tough than humans and have better attack usually but their ranged units have less range.

[Stratego (dev)]

@Vladneral @Jerryqian39

what do u think can u confirm it is a balance problem?

[makazuwr32]

If we will remove goblin looting ability and grenade ability from spikers it will not be a problem anymore as for me.

Both changes can even be made now.

[Stratego (dev)]

any thoughts?
@Vladneral @Jerryqian39

[Vladneral]

I dont like to remove goblin grenade from spiker goblin - i believe this tactics exactly for cheap goblins.

Maybe make it with less damage and make it suicide to user. Make it doesnt effect on hamletback.

Remove corpse looting from spiker also

[makazuwr32]

Removal of corpse looting is planned since we will give this ability to new specific unit of horde instead of giving it to literally every possible goblin.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok so quick lfix suggestion:
1. Remove corpse looting from spiker
2. and this(?): Maybe make it with less damage and make it suicide to user. Make it doesnt effect on hamletback. (btw i am not sure i undertand what is the suggested change here)