Anti Tank Rifleman Upgrades

[TntAttack]

Infantry Upgrades for Anti Tank Rifleman

Intended to improve infantry anti tank role (pretend SMGs don't exist for a moment). To be researched in barracks. Was intended to compliment my 1 turn tankette and heavy tank adjustment balancing idea but there was a great lack of interest in it.

Italy:
Swiss made anti tank rifle purchased and used by Italy.
Default Solothurn S-18/100 Italian anti tank rifle
To Solothurn S-18/1000 Italian anti tank rifleman Tech

Germany:
Default PzB 38 German anti tank rifle
To PzB 39 German anti tabk rifle Tech

Russian:
PTRS-41 and PTRD-41 are very similar and used around the same time. The PTRS was actually designed a bit earlier, so I suggest setting it as default Russian ATR infantry. The PTRD was simpler and used longer without significant upgrades. I think it was even used as a Sniper.

Default PTRS-41 Russian anti tank rifle (was designed earlier but produced in 1941)
To PTRD-41 Russian anti tank rifle Russia anti tank rifle Tech


Japan:
Japanese ATR was old and they didn't make any upgrade. I suggested moving the 45-mm Type 5 recoilless AT weapon to industry 2 to compensate for Japan's lack of anti tank rifle upgrade because weapon itself had low ranged and penetration. The other anti tank weapon the Japanese had was the Lunge Mine AT stick but that didn't seem like a good upgrade for Japanese ATR.

Default Type 97 automatic cannon Japanese Anti tank
To 45-mm Type 5 recoilless anti-tank weapon Tech (produced in 1945)

British:
Default Boys anti tank rifle MK 1
To Boys anti tank rifle MK 2

US:
US didn't have any anti tank rifles during the war. Drejade said US used Browning MG as their light anti tank weapon.

France:
The French only had the currently in game prewar 37mm anti tank gun, as well as the British ones. They should follow British anti tank rifle tech upgrade.

[Stratego (dev)]

very good! we have lack of infantry upgrades already!

[Jasondunkel]

What is important here is how powerful these weapons were. How big were their ranges? As far as I remember, the penetration power of these weapons is very low.

But we could set a bonus against vehicles in particular so that they become more effective there

Perhaps we should focus more on the bazooka and similar weapons. because they were more successful against tanks. and then perhaps research there to make improvements. The explosive power and penetrating power have been continually improved

[TntAttack]

What is important here is how powerful these weapons were. How big were their ranges? As far as I remember, the penetration power of these weapons is very low.

But we could set a bonus against vehicles in particular so that they become more effective there

Perhaps we should focus more on the bazooka and similar weapons. because they were more successful against tanks. and then perhaps research there to make improvements. The explosive power and penetrating power have been continually improved

The role of anti tank rifleman became redundant as tank armour became thicker. Technically medium tank and above should be difficult for anti tank rifleman to destroy. I think even some later industry light tanks had more armour than ATR penetration.

However, tankettes, armoured cars, jeeps, light vehicles, transports and light tanks should be within scope of bonus.

My intention is for players to choose in 2nd industry between
1. Upgrading ATR for short term benefits (as ATRs on field will be upgraded as well)
2. Swapping to superior but costly Bazooka infantry.
3. Or both.

Also Stratego and Jason, what do you think of ATR having "tracking" effect on enemy tanks? ATR can't penerate heavily armoured tanks, but they sure can track them.

[Jasondunkel]

Currently the AT rifles have a base damage of 2
against :
Vehicles have a bonus of 600% which is +12 damage
Light tanks and self-propelled guns 800% which is +16 damage
medium tanks 400% which is +8 damage
infantry and field artillery, howitzer 200% which does +4 damage

With the vehicles we could then do 800% +16 damage
for light tanks and self-propelled guns 950% +19 damage
I would also like to add flak and anti-tank guns to the infantry, the bonus itself remains

would be that okay


what is this training supposed to be? The translator tells me something about persecution, but I don't think that's what is meant. I would assume that you want to slow it down when hit?

[TntAttack]

1. Tracking Effect

Anti tank rifleman, Bazooka infantry and more "tracks" armoured vehicles giving them -1 speed and -1 armour. Effect can stack, lasts 2 turns. Effect removed by rifleman or engineer repairing armoured unit.

2. Stat suggestion
(ATR means Anti tank rifleman)

Here's what I think the stats should be like.

Base damage of ATR is 2, ATR upgrade is 3 and bazooka is 4.

ATR to vehicles +650%, Artillery Self Propelled +600%, light tanks +550, medium tanks +450%, infantry/Anti tank Gun/AA +200%
ART Upgrade to vehicles +650%, Artillery Self Propelled +600%, light tanks +550, medium tanks +450%,infantry/Anti tank Gun/AA +200%
Bazooka to vehicles +700%, Artillery Self Propelled +650%, light tanks +600, medium tanks +500%, heavy tank +300%, infantry/Anti tank Gun/AA +200%

3. Attributes

If necessary we could set it so ATR and Bazooka infantry deals 1.5x counter attack damage (I have seen this attribute on a bomber in game in the past before). Alternatively, we can follow your ambushing idea and give infantry first strike on terrain, making anti tank infantry to be feared in forests and mountains.

[Jasondunkel]

I don't think it's a good idea to increase the basic value of the ATR, and the damage associated with it is too high overall.

With the bazoka we can, however, increase the basic value to 3.
With the basic value of 3, your bonuses are good

or we make it an ability like with the bazooka. The bazooka itself will continue to be weaker, but then you could also decide there whether to use this weapon

[TntAttack]

I don't think it's a good idea to increase the basic value of the ATR, and the damage associated with it is too high overall.

With the bazoka we can, however, increase the basic value to 3.
With the basic value of 3, your bonuses are good

or we make it an ability like with the bazooka. The bazooka itself will continue to be weaker, but then you could also decide there whether to use this weapon

1. What do you suggest for ATR upgrade?

Current ATR damage bonus
vehicle +12
light tank +16
medium tank +8

My suggested ATR tier 1
vehicle +13
light tank +11
medium tank +9

My suggested ATR tier 2
vehicle +19
light tank +16
medium tank +13


ATR should be focused against vehicles. I suggest it has to 2 hit a transport truck (30hp vehicle).

Current ATR 3 hit, suggested 2nd tier ATR can 2 hit. How about from ATR 1 to ATR 2 there is only 200% increase in bonus against all unit types e.g. light tank bonus 550%->750% but vehicle bonus increase by 300% or 400%?

2. Bazooka Adjustment

Current bazooka bonuses
Vehicle +16
light tank +22
medium tank +16

My suggested bazooka
Vehicle +28
light tank +24
medium tank +20

Your suggested Bazooka
Vehicle +21
light tank +18
medium tank +15

I am debating whether or not bazooka infantry should 1 hit transport truck (30hp vehicle). I am fine with suggested 3 damage bazooka with suggested bonuses.

However, if you want to give bazooka ability. Give them 2-3 ability cool down, 2 actions, base attack the same as upgraded ATR.

[DreJaDe]

I think increasing basic atk value of bazooka is nice.

Even to 8 is fine, I like to have them have more general damage than just bonus since they are dealing with explosive after all.

Do rearranging the values of bonus might be a pain...

[Jasondunkel]

I think increasing basic atk value of bazooka is nice.

Even to 8 is fine, I like to have them have more general damage than just bonus since they are dealing with explosive after all.

Do rearranging the values of bonus might be a pain...

No, I think such a high basic value is wrong. because this weapon was and is used very restrictedly. Remember when people attack they attack broadly. Therefore the weapon will certainly kill a few people, but not even close to killing the squad. what the MG can do, for example, because you can spread quickly..

[DreJaDe]

No, I think such a high basic value is wrong. because this weapon was and is used very restrictedly. Remember when people attack they attack broadly. Therefore the weapon will certainly kill a few people, but not even close to killing the squad. what the MG can do, for example, because you can spread quickly..

You actually got it.

8 damage means 4-6 hits still against most infantry.

Ok, it has bonus against infantry but honestly can be removed if this goes. Either way is fine for me. Just want their damage to not be worth nothing against inf.

[Jasondunkel]

I don't think it's a good idea to increase the basic value of the ATR, and the damage associated with it is too high overall.

With the bazoka we can, however, increase the basic value to 3.
With the basic value of 3, your bonuses are good

or we make it an ability like with the bazooka. The bazooka itself will continue to be weaker, but then you could also decide there whether to use this weapon

1. What do you suggest for ATR upgrade?

Current ATR damage bonus
vehicle +12
light tank +16
medium tank +8

My suggested ATR tier 1
vehicle +13
light tank +11
medium tank +9

My suggested ATR tier 2
vehicle +19
light tank +16
medium tank +13


ATR should be focused against vehicles. I suggest it has to 2 hit a transport truck (30hp vehicle).

Current ATR 3 hit, suggested 2nd tier ATR can 2 hit. How about from ATR 1 to ATR 2 there is only 200% increase in bonus against all unit types e.g. light tank bonus 550%->750% but vehicle bonus increase by 300% or 400%?

2. Bazooka Adjustment

Current bazooka bonuses
Vehicle +16
light tank +22
medium tank +16

My suggested bazooka
Vehicle +28
light tank +24
medium tank +20

Your suggested Bazooka
Vehicle +21
light tank +18
medium tank +15

I am debating whether or not bazooka infantry should 1 hit transport truck (30hp vehicle). I am fine with suggested 3 damage bazooka with suggested bonuses.

However, if you want to give bazooka ability. Give them 2-3 ability cool down, 2 actions, base attack the same as upgraded ATR.

Making the bazooka and similar weapons like Panzerschrei 43 as ability is a suggestion. and the question is... is this wanted. Since the "Panzerfaust" is a similar weapon to the bazooka, but in game it is a abilitiy. the "Panzerfaust" is everyone's weapon, it is easier to use, that would be a compensation. The bazooka needs two people to operate , so it is difficult to operate.

If it were to become an ability, I would suggest a cooldown of 2 rounds

How do we get from ATR 1 to ATR 2?

and ATR 3 is supposed to be bazooka?
If so, that would be wrong because it is a different weapon

[Jasondunkel]

No, I think such a high basic value is wrong. because this weapon was and is used very restrictedly. Remember when people attack they attack broadly. Therefore the weapon will certainly kill a few people, but not even close to killing the squad. what the MG can do, for example, because you can spread quickly..

You actually got it.

8 damage means 4-6 hits still against most infantry.

Ok, it has bonus against infantry but honestly can be removed if this goes. Either way is fine for me. Just want their damage to not be worth nothing against inf.

then the basic damage of 3 with a bonus of 200% is still good, because your wish is taken into account that the damage against infantry is still low

[TntAttack]

You actually got it.

8 damage means 4-6 hits still against most infantry.

Ok, it has bonus against infantry but honestly can be removed if this goes. Either way is fine for me. Just want their damage to not be worth nothing against inf.

then the basic damage of 3 with a bonus of 200% is still good, because your wish is taken into account that the damage against infantry is still low

I tried to research what other weapons bazooka infantry carried but they were a weapon shared by a squad. So I propose we assume that the rest of the bazooka infantry unit have rifles.

I agree with Drejade in that Bazookas should deal some kind of damage to infantry. Bazooka dealing 8-10 damage (damage+bonus) to infantry is good.

Making the bazooka and similar weapons like Panzerschrei 43 as ability is a suggestion. and the question is... is this wanted. Since the "Panzerfaust" is a similar weapon to the bazooka, but in game it is a abilitiy. the "Panzerfaust" is everyone's weapon, it is easier to use, that would be a compensation. The bazooka needs two people to operate , so it is difficult to operate.

If it were to become an ability, I would suggest a cooldown of 2 rounds

How do we get from ATR 1 to ATR 2?

and ATR 3 is supposed to be bazooka?
If so, that would be wrong because it is a different weapon

Should Bazooka infantry have anti tank grenade and normal grenade? I am fine with bazooka attack as ability if it has other abilities like anti tank grenade and infantry grenade. (We can remove one grenade)

Please note, Bazooka is not ATR 3. Bazooka is a separate unit. For implementing ATR upgrades, just rename all the normal ATR with ATR 1, and add ATR 2 as upgrade tech for normal ATR 1 unit. No new sprites besides "upgrade" icon, just name and text changing.

ATR 1 -> ATR 2 (Cost 2 turns, industry 1 and 2)
Bazooka (Cost 3 turns, industry 2)

[TntAttack]

@Jasondunkel @DreJaDe


Let's finalise this thread. Jason you said bazooka should have 3 base damage but didn't to suggest an alternative base damage for ATR upgrade. My finalised proposed stats has bazooka base damage as 3.5. I'm also distinguishing between vehicles light and vehicles noncombat.


Base damage of ATR is 2, ATR upgrade is 3 and bazooka is 3.5.

ATR to vehicles light +650% (+13), vehicles noncombat +850%(+17), self propelled artillery +700%(+14), light tanks +550 (+11), medium tanks +450% (+9), infantry/Anti tank Gun/AA +200% (+4)

ATR Upgrade to vehicles light +500% (+15), vehicles noncombat +600% (+18), self propelled artillery +600% (+18), light tanks +500 (+15), medium tanks +300% (+9) ,infantry/Anti tank Gun/AA +200% (+6)

Bazooka to vehicles light +600% (+21), to vehicles noncombat +800% (+28), self propelled artillery +650% (+22), light tanks +700 (+24), medium tanks +450% (+15), heavy tank +400% (+14), infantry/Anti tank Gun/AA +200% (+7), to buildings +300 (+10), to megabuilding +3000 (+105)

Remarks:
- I increased the bazooka bonus for heavy tanks from 300 to 400, scaling towards heavy tank's extremely high health and armour. Note that currently SMG anti tank ability targets all tanks for about 22 damage so its not ridiculous that bazookas deals 17 damage (base damage+bonus) against heavy tanks.
- ATR has strong damage against self propelled artillery as advised by Drejade.
- ATR upgraded can 2 tap transport trucks
- Bazooka can 1 tap transport trucks
- Bazooka megabuilding bonus reduced

[Jasondunkel]

@Jasondunkel @DreJaDe


Let's finalise this thread. Jason you said bazooka should have 3 base damage but didn't to suggest an alternative base damage for ATR upgrade. My finalised proposed stats has bazooka base damage as 3.5. I'm also distinguishing between vehicles light and vehicles noncombat.


Base damage of ATR is 2, ATR upgrade is 3 and bazooka is 3.5.

ATR to vehicles light +650% (+13), vehicles noncombat +850%(+17), self propelled artillery +700%(+14), light tanks +550 (+11), medium tanks +450% (+9), infantry/Anti tank Gun/AA +200% (+4)

ATR Upgrade to vehicles light +500% (+15), vehicles noncombat +600% (+18), self propelled artillery +600% (+18), light tanks +500 (+15), medium tanks +300% (+9) ,infantry/Anti tank Gun/AA +200% (+6)

Bazooka to vehicles light +600% (+21), to vehicles noncombat +800% (+28), self propelled artillery +650% (+22), light tanks +700 (+24), medium tanks +450% (+15), heavy tank +400% (+14), infantry/Anti tank Gun/AA +200% (+7), to buildings +300 (+10), to megabuilding +3000 (+105)

Remarks:
- I increased the bazooka bonus for heavy tanks from 300 to 400, scaling towards heavy tank's extremely high health and armour. Note that currently SMG anti tank ability targets all tanks for about 22 damage so its not ridiculous that bazookas deals 17 damage (base damage+bonus) against heavy tanks.
- ATR has strong damage against self propelled artillery as advised by Drejade.
- ATR upgraded can 2 tap transport trucks
- Bazooka can 1 tap transport trucks
- Bazooka megabuilding bonus reduced

the atr upgrade shloud be at wich industrie lvl ?

and should get the bazook a upgrade in industrie lvl III (end)

As far as I know, the grenades/rockets were improved by the explosive charge

[TntAttack]

the atr upgrade shloud be at wich industrie lvl ?

and should get the bazook a upgrade in industrie lvl III (end)

As far as I know, the grenades/rockets were improved by the explosive charge

ATRv2 upgrade and bazooka unit should be both available in industry 2.

It is possible for the bazooka to get an upgrade, but that would increase the disadvantage of those nations without any bazooka upgrades. Italy, Japan, France and Russia don't really have a "good" bazooka weapon that they owned and improved upon. Hence I disagree. As for improvements in general, see discord for suggestions.