Battering ram defensive capability nerf with pack idea

[makazuwr32]

I support idea of endru for siege units but with slight changes:
1. In all modes siege must not be able to enter into wagons. At all.
2. Ranged siege in packed mode will have good movement speed - 3 or 4.This will make it viable to use even without wagons.
3. In unpacked mode ranged siege will have speed 1 to slightly move around so you can correct attack range.

In aof for human siege this worked suprisingly good.

[godOfKings]

If sieges in attack version r not allowed in castle and most towers, i actually had an idea like rampart or battlement that r specialised towers with no attack and one garrison that can carry attack mode siege units, they really would b catapult and trebuchet towers, also for fairness i think we can make attack version at least have 1 speed but without being able to b carried in anything other than the specialised towers

Also no siege unit can transform while in any kinds of garrison, does u have to make siege unit transform to attack mode b4 entering rampart

[godOfKings]

I dont think its necessary to make packed units unable to enter wagon since they wont b able to immediately attack after exiting wagon

But stationary ballista with 2 action will still shred enemy infantries easily while defending, making it there is no viable strategy to win early game, only in late game wen heavy foot infantry have 6-8 p armor does ballista become not so op with 2 actions but still deal better damage than catapults on infantry

[godOfKings]

By the way its time u guys go back to the actual over hauling topic instead of spamming this topic

packed sieges

[godOfKings]

As for this topic, i can forget the idea but there should b 2 other changes at least

1. All melee infantry and cav with bonus against armored siege should have bonus increase by at least 50 % (swprdsman 250, knight 150, other infantry 150%)

2. Make it that ballista at start have only 1 action and 2 action will b available wen overall p armor of infantry is higher (just like how catapult becomes more useful with a 7 turn area damage tech, ballista already will have descent damage initially, 4 turn ranged unit with 8-10 area damage and it will double for researching a 7 turn tech)

[makazuwr32]

I was planning to make ballista in unpacked mode to have speed 1. Same as for all other ranged siege.

The reason for disabling entrance into wagon for siege units is to reduce hit-n-run techniques with siege units.
Some units (for example cannon) will not have any packed modes.

Also about wagons: i would prefer to divide current vagon into 2 - siege wagon and infantry wagon. Cavalry must not be able to enter into wagons at all (i do not get how in wagon elephant or knight can take same place as dog or archer) and siege must be able to enter into their own wagons.

Agree about ballista.

[Endru1241]

As for this topic, i can forget the idea but there should b 2 other changes at least

1. All melee infantry and cav with bonus against armored siege should have bonus increase by at least 50 % (swprdsman 250, knight 150, other infantry 150%)

Again - that lowers ram offensive usage (albeit not much).
Why not just do it like I wrote earlier?

I would rather weaken defensive side of rams.
Why not disallow attacking/carrying version any entry to tc? Tc could produce only carryable version instead, which could have less hp.

2. Make it that ballista at start have only 1 action and 2 action will b available wen overall p armor of infantry is higher (just like how catapult becomes more useful with a 7 turn area damage tech, ballista already will have descent damage initially, 4 turn ranged unit with 8-10 area damage and it will double for researching a 7 turn tech)

There is never a time when overall p.armor of infantry is really higher. 2 from blacksmith is negligible.
But ballista is supposed to be effective vs infantry. with only one shot it's not even guaranteed to be 50% as effective, because of the randomness.
On the other hand it can be easily countered by cavalry.
Adding 7 turn research just to make it usable (exactly like catapult area damage) denies one of the reasons behind using it.
If we added it - it would be more reasonable to just research gunpowder and build hwacha.

I dont think its necessary to make packed units unable to enter wagon since they wont b able to immediately attack after exiting wagon

I was planning to make ballista in unpacked mode to have speed 1. Same as for all other ranged siege.

The reason for disabling entrance into wagon for siege units is to reduce hit-n-run techniques with siege units.
Some units (for example cannon) will not have any packed modes.

Also about wagons: i would prefer to divide current vagon into 2 - siege wagon and infantry wagon. Cavalry must not be able to enter into wagons at all (i do not get how in wagon elephant or knight can take same place as dog or archer) and siege must be able to enter into their own wagons.

Agree about ballista.

Instead of 1 speed, we can just make siege units have 0 speed and add spell "force move" or something, that grants 1 speed. That would decrease the need of packing and still make it possible to outmanoeuver siege.

Wagon can have transformations too, we can just add one without taking any action. It could be transformed into 1 carry cap version with ability to transport siege and cavalry. Well, maybe not necessarily all cavalry, but at least elephants. It's the closest to variable carry space I can think of.

[godOfKings]

Attack siege should have 1 speed or else it wont b able to attack defensive siege in range and defensive siege will get 1st strike,

As for packed battering ram, if i am to summarise it will b like this

Packed ram will have very low hp, for example 24, 30, 36 hp, no carry capacity, 0 atk, can b carried in wagon, tc, buildings etc. And can transform wen OUTSIDE garrison, speed will b same as unpacked version

Unpacked version can carry infantry, has current stats and cannot b garrisoned in any buildings

Here is a draft for packed image

[Endru1241]

Attack siege should have 1 speed or else it wont b able to attack defensive siege in range and defensive siege will get 1st strike,

It won't need it. Don't try to topple the balance to the other side.
Currently attackers have first strike, but need the punch to break defences shielding siege. So attack is possible, but needs more units.
Siege in castles, fortresses have to be destroyed by siege, because nothing can survive in the close distance long enough to destroy shielding building.

In proposed version - siege is either shielded in the buildings, but needs deployment or is set up, but vulnerable to fast attackers. Eventually can be set up with defensive structures all around, but it requires much more time.
Either way - unless someone has full walls siege is not needed to deal with other siege.
If however defender has move fully blocked by defensive structures - they can be destroyed safely by attacking siege.
Two standing siege would be in the impasse, where the first one, which moves will get hit and be probably destroyed.
Deploying siege is supposed to be hard.

Such changes will also allow to finally introduce +range technology for siege, which would allow impasse break and better tactics.
Another change could be tech giving 0 cost action increasing move for a moment, usable e.g. only once per 6 turns or so.

As for packed battering ram, if i am to summarise it will b like this

Packed ram will have very low hp, for example 24, 30, 36 hp, no carry capacity, 0 atk, can b carried in wagon, tc, buildings etc. And can transform wen OUTSIDE garrison, speed will b same as unpacked version

Unpacked version can carry infantry, has current stats and cannot b garrisoned in any buildings

That's right.
But they may have slightly more movement (+1 speed) depending on other siege packed movement.