"1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project FINISHED

[Stratego (dev)]

This topic is ONLY about the basic races (elf, undead, orc, human)

We all know there are balance issues currently in game so i have an urge to fix that (in any way) and only after continue building the game further.
Me and Alexander both agree that we have no balance also i heard many thing in multiplayer games/chat that is to be considered.

As you see in last week i have put in many pending things (about undead and elves) those all were things helping the balance, also we have a few more to put in
- elf: 2 elven subraces
- undead: skeleton monsters, zombies infection, good sieges, demons, vampires sub

My goal is to bring a fair balance in a week (or so) and i try to find what is needed for that.
this topic is for collecting your ideas, thoughts that we need to think of by getting a good balance

So please list here your ideas which unit, or units are "out" of balance to the others, currently by being either OP or too weak or useless.

this is a random idea collection, no need to make sense or camparable to any of the other posts here
just list here your thoughts we will organize them to a modification strategy - so what we need to achieve the 1st "in theory" balance level.

MOST suggested ones:
(including my own ideas too)
Solutions are possible alternatives, not sure which will be used to solve the problem
but the problem will be solved somehow

Undead siege needed
Solution:
a) Skeleton ball is idea of ramming ball of corpses [IMPLEMENTED]
b) corpse flinger

corpse flinger.png (818 Bytes) Viewed 6208 times

Elves little cheaper techs
solution:
a) armor, shield, bow, sword: 4/5/6 turns cost instead of 4/6/8
b) OR bow techs add range only, archer damageby weapon techs too cost 4/6/8 -> 4/5/6 [IMPLEMENTED]


Elves too fragile buildings(?)
Solution:
a)
- can research ambidextria, [IMPLEMENTED]
- main worker will be: elf worker. (remark: ent worker to laborer) [IMPLEMENTED]
- thorn bushes ability to grow up [IMPLEMENTED]


Elf Ent demolisher need range or power
Solution
a) increasse range +2 (?)
b) OR increase speed +1 (?)
c) Ent demolisher got rock hurling techs giving +1 range +1 attack each [IMPLEMENTED]


Orc regeneration be smaller in range and power (and/or not for all orc race units?)
Solutions
a)
- orc shaman (now has 50% regen - remove this ablility, and giving only normal heal)
- troll shaman (now has 100% regen - remove this ablility, and give it troll regeneration enchantment spell)
- a NEW Healer unit should go under subrace with 100% regen spell (what unit and under which subrace?)
b)
- As other changes are in (eg. ettin counter units, less "everywhere" producable orcs), maybe this is not that problem now, we can go without changing it, please everyone comment/confirm


Orc units in separate buildings, and not in TC
Solution:
a)
- giants having their own building, and build them only there.
- minotaurs having their own building, and build them only there.
- goblins having their own building, and build them only there.
- trolls having their own building, and build them only there (most trolls, if some needed to be "default" than that is in TC too - eg. troll headhunter?)
- (the below listed water orcs also removed from TC)
- any other?
b) little more specific alternative byAlex:
1. new troll building [IMPLEMENTED] (also all trolls moved here exeptions below)
2. from caves: all non giant+savage ones move to their own building [IMPLEMENTED]
3. reamain in caves: trolls, savage units (which are all giants) and minotaurs [IMPLEMENTED]
4. from TC: everything strong goes into its own race building except troll headhunter and troll axe thrower [IMPLEMENTED]
c) same solutions "b" except here we make new building for minotaurs too and move them there.


Orc buildings hp and build time
Solution
a) All factories must have x1 multiplier for construction rate and mend rate.
Exeption is carved monster cave (on hills one) - this one must have x1.5 multiplier.
As for hps and armors - lower them for orcish factories down to 30 and 0/6 (with exeption of uruk tent - this one must have 50 hp).
b)
- As other changes are in (eg. elf construction boosts, better sieges on other races), maybe this is not that problem now, we can go without changing it, please everyone comment/confirm



Orc water units are strongest / too easy to build
Solution:
a) option1: alex suggestion
tc:
- merlock warrior
- merblin harpoonist
- merblin gutter
- merblin servant

not at tc
- merlock leader
- merblin crocodile rider
- merlock chain fighter

[IMPLEMENTED]



Ettins being less invincible
Solution:
a) More costy +1 turns (or +2 ?)
b) OR Reducing its range of attack by 1, and weakening the splash effect (?)
c) OR making other races being able to handle them: human use slingers, undead use curses and new stuffs we made, elves use a new unit slinger against it (alex suggestion) [IMPLEMENTED]


Maybe Orc raptor rider is too strong
solution
a) idea1: give a base +2 attack for all races' lancers aside raptor rider. That should make all lancers more useful. (by Alex) [IMPLEMENTED]
b) idea2:
- speed 5/5/6 and cost 4 while increasing its other stats (hp and armor mainly, maybe also slight increase of attack).
+1 new melee scout unit
(eg. goblin skeever rider)
or the already planned cheeta archer?

unit_orc_goblin_mounted_archer.png (1.54 KiB) Viewed 6208 times

unit_orc_goblin_mounted_archer_elite.png (1.53 KiB) Viewed 6208 times

unit_orc_goblin_mounted_archer_master.png (1.56 KiB) Viewed 6208 times

[/i]

ranged giants indeed must be banned from carriers (wagon)
Solution:
a) removing them. [IMPLEMENTED]

[AgentA]

I think elves are too fast. I notice that they usually dominate the early game by capturing more TC than the opponent(s). Maybe it's better to keep the 3 speed standard and give them a tech that will increase their speed by +1.

[Badnorth]

I think elves are too fast. I notice that they usually dominate the early game by capturing more TC than the opponent(s). Maybe it's better to keep the 3 speed standard and give them a tech that will increase their speed by +1.

I agree

[Badnorth]

I think that ettin is OP when I fight an ettin or use an ettin it is too Powerfull also the second and third upgrade of ettin has godlike power. The only way I can think of to beat an ettin is an assasin ,flying units ,curse and Fear. It is so tricky with high health Power range and range plus Damage

[Jerfoxman]

As for the elves maybe monkey people or amazon warriors

[Midonik]

The subraces for elfs are already planned: sun rise elfs and moon light elfs.
No way we can put those in on a decent level in a week, we have zero images.

Also elfs are almost decent the way they are, they do need work sure /but they aren't broken like scaledfolks and dwarfs (latter partially)/.

That undead part seems within reach tho.

[Stratego (dev)]

so you say new elf subraces not needed to acheive balance?

also please tell me the races / units you see out of current balance.

[Valaraukar]

Ok, observations that suggest an imbalance;

Elves: Elves can't hold their buildings together. Also their melee units are so weak sometimes I see someone play using an archer swarm and using a few fire archers in case a troll headhunter comes by. The elves also take way too long to boost their stats enough to survive.
Undeads: They start out really good but the other races improve faster than them.
Orcs: Their infantry are too powerful. In the water they are also easily the best.
Humans: In early game they are weaklings and towards the end the only thing that can easily take them on is dwarves. I've noticed that the Warfell units seem preferably to the Imperials a lot of the time, maybe Imps should be improved a bit once humans are more in balance later?

[Valaraukar]

Ent Demolisher seems too weak for a 7 turn unit.
Troll Headhunter seems too strong for a 5.
The Human subraces seem imbalanced, maybe instead of improving Imps like I suggested you knock down Warfell a bit?

[Stratego (dev)]

thanks! what do u mean by this?

Elves can't hold their buildings together.

[Valaraukar]

A lot of the elf buildings have low health. The undeads have a similar problem there but can make up for it easier. The elves don't hold ground well because of the low health and then it's easy to attack their buildings. The buildings don't have enough health or armor to take much damage before being destroyed and it's too easy for me to exploit that.

[Dagravian]

1 week? Seens quite a big challenge. Aside already planned content/changes... I will point what i consider vital to achieve balance.

1- Powerbase or minimal dmg, this thing was a mistake. It should be removed here from everything and all units that have it should be reworked/updated. Btw the mechanic should be saved for other purposes. Eg: add it to a boss for a "co-op boss battle mode" or smt.

2- Percent healing for orcs. This should be forbbiden for them. Its unfair to other races that orcish healers can fully heal a giant in 1 or 2 turns when orcs already have highest HP and power pool from all races, in fact 2x more HP and around 3x more the attack power than other races, this change alone will drastically reduce Orcish balance problems.

3- Armor and p.armor values don't reflect well on non living creatures, its not enough, in fact a minimal value should be set as default as racial/default trait on these, being bonus for current value for all undead, nonliving, manufactured objects and structural fiends.

4- Upgrade Tab and its units should be reviewed and restructured to be new player friendly, from NO UPGRADE as starting point with consistent leveling between races untill the endgame point. Currently is just anything and everything, scaled progress in between is just ignored... in short words, its (startpoint > endgame) right away... And not (startpoint > scaled progress > endgame).

But how to measure that? Simple, start from beggining... Is "No upgrade" match balanced between these races? No? Then adjust for it be, If yes, then a few units/techs can be unlocked, are these new adds in balance? No? Adjust it to be, if yes, allow another layer of content, then test this "level" until it gets balanced, if yes > another layer > test > balance y/n? > New layer and so on, keep adding these layers to divide the power-level of units untill we reach what we consider endgame units of the upgrade tab, as we equilibrate races in game.

5- Subrace as option button - Subraces currently are the cunning edge from any race, you often use them way beyond the basic units, this can be sorted on the option above, but an option to allow a game with them or not while having all upgrades would be nice.

6- Lancer class (mounted anti mounted) is way beyond bad. (Eg try out human lancer vs orc warg rider, your lancer is defeated in raw dmg and will be blasted, same in case of the elven and undead ones. Excluding raptor rider, which is cheaper, faster, stronger etc. Every race Lancers should this good or better on this parameter).

Ofc i have some other smaller concerns, but these alone are loosing points when you make an overview, things that need special attention in order to fix the balancing issue imho.

[Stratego (dev)]

very good!

non balancing ones:

upgrade tab: it is not about balance i think but good idea making there some kinda tier-s!
also balance should be seen in only 2 filters: default units in a race (without upgrades) and all units in a race, but in this topic we want the "all" as in most games local+multiplayer we play with all units.

5- Subrace as option button: this is also not a blancing question but good idea!


-------------------------
balancing ones:

powerbase: i see it is set on low values 1..3 maximum - is that too much?

3- Armor and p.armor values don't reflect well on non living creatures, its not enough, in fact a minimal value should be set as default as racial/default trait on these, being bonus for current value for all undead, nonliving, manufactured objects and structural fiends.

you mean you would increase armor values? on which units?

all others are also very fitting opinions to balance topic! thanks!


please others post also so we will have a bunch of thoughts collected -t hans!

[Savra]

What about removing some units from tc's? For example the troll shaman, orc warlock, orc leader, elf leader, human captain, etc. Generally special units since that usually defeats the purpose of building their buildings as well. Another thing is remove a majority of the techs (orcs) out of the tc as well.

Orcs only need one tc and you practically have everything you need their, while other races have to rely on building a separate building just to upgrade units.

Also about the moon elves I believe lynx shafir made some images in a topic a while back for them.

Elves, I agree their techs cost too much and need to be readjusted.

Dwarves need cheaper defence structures or better mend rate of something, also the short spearmen and long spearmen start with the exact same stats but with different costs. But they do need siege and spells.

As for orcs potion regeneration I already suggested for them to just have their range lowered to 1 and the potions to have a cool, being that throwing it is ineffective because their supposed to be drunk, and the unit isn't going to catch it all the time. Also they should take some time to make.

As for troll headhunter maybe just give it 2 actions instead of 3.

The ettin could have its cost be bumped up to 10.

The basic orcs could have a slight decrease in their stats being that the orc warrior has stats on par with that of a 3 turn dwarf unit.

[Stratego (dev)]

good thaks!
(dwarves are not scope in this topic)

[makazuwr32]

Elves actually currently as for me are quite balanced.
Only their problem that personally i see in them is too high cost of their blacksmith techs.
If it was lower (4/5/6 turns cos instead of 4/6/8) they would be close to perfect.
Power base right now is not a problem because only 2 archer units i think can benefit from it (and 3rd one later as well) - 2 turn cost archer and 5 turn cost captain.
As for speed - it is thier main advantage so do not touch it. They are only race who has no ways of hp increase and they have least amount of hp among all races. Or if you touch that then they must get hps around tier 2 of humans (AT LEAST) or tiers.

Also ent demolisher is a painfully weak for 7 turn cost siege unit. Must have higher attack range at base. Maybe also higher attack power.

As for buildings - do not touch them yet because we will overlook through all buildings later.

i do not touch yet naval though.

Humans are most balanced faction right now.

Orc - i agree with % based healing. Alas i think it still must be for orcs but not for the main race, only as part of one of subs.
Also their racial techs supposed later to get special building where all of them are researchable.
And last problem that i see for orcs is that monster cave building has widest range of units: cavalry, trolls and giants. Each type of them must have their own building.

Undeads - their current main problem is lack of siege. We need to make "Skeleton Ball" siege unit and some sort of high range (comparable to catapult or even trebushet) for them.
Also Cementary reaper unit (zombie with aura)can become more usable if it will gain aoe raise zobie (range 3, similar to necromancer's one).

[Savra]

Yes, I feel the cemetery reaper is slowly losing its purpose, especially with the upcoming infection thing.

Also undead definitely need siege equipment, especially ranged ones, so before we put any new units into them those should be the first on their list to be added and be put as top priority over the others.

As for orcs healing thing, putting it in a sub might work, but I would still prefer each race to have their own healing methods over generic healing, for example dwarves could use runes, elves could use a cleansing one, etc. Orcs can keep a percentage one for main race but it would have to be a lower percentage with the 50% potion being the max we could allow them. Perhaps 20% regen potions would do fine.

As for ent demolisher, do remember that it also is the only ranged siege that can be garrisoned and one could simply put a healer in it as well as 2 archers instead to protect it, but I think an hp or armour or p.armour buff might not be too bad. (Possibly a range increase too.)

As for humans, yes they are quite balanced for now.

Again back to orcs, the cave is fine for the trolls, we could leave the cavalry to the tents though, and if I remember correctly the giants are getting their own buildings anyway, just like the minitors.

[Stratego (dev)]

very good both! thanks!
i will try to make bulletpoint list from the most suggested ones

also

As for buildings - do not touch them yet because we will overlook through all buildings later.

no, not a choise, tell us now the plan because there is no "later" if it is required for balance than it must be now

giants are getting their own buildings anyway, just like the minitors.

please list every non existing and planned things here (i might not know these) IF they are needed for balance.

so again: there is no later! , if something is needed for the balance (at least for what we think needed to be balance) than write here! thanks!

i try to start a bulletpoint list in first post from the ones that is required and was mentioned multiple times. please check and tell me if any important is missing.

[Stratego (dev)]

healing thing, putting it in a sub might work

it was mentioned multiple times but not sure what it means
a) healers are accessible only via a subra (own building and embassy techs) but still can heal most Orc race units.
b) or it is a subrace healer and can only heal subrace units

?

[Stratego (dev)]

ok i made the first list of needed changes mentioning only the problem - not the solution primarily (yet).

[makazuwr32]

The problem here is that we are planning major overhaul of all buildings stats:
Hp (unified hp for all factories, also hp of factories will be greatly increased — 80-120 hp they will have depending on category of factory; greatly increased hp of walls, moderately increased hp of other non-wall-based fortifications, greatly increased hp of megas, differentation of megas by "big mega 2x3" and smaller ones, smaller megas will have less hp and other stats but will have some uniqueness and being cheaper than big megas), construction rates, mending rates, armors; IS NOT READY YET;
Along with:
- Techs for increasing health of buildings (2 techs for +50% hp which as result increases hp of buildings by 125% in total is op);
- Workers and laborers (each race must be able to upgrade their workers' mend rates and each race must have proper laborers) — humans, dwarves, orcs and undeads will get tiers for their workers (actual tiers), while elves and scalefolks will get ambidextria-like techs to upgrade mend rate of their workers/laborers; STATS FOR THEM ARE READY but we need proper images for them as well as proper way to level up — it won't be fair if orcs would be able to level up their workers along with other part of their armies just with one, same tech;
- Proper siege for all races: currently problems with it have elves (ranged siege), dwarves, undeads; IS NOT READY YET.

I suggest not to touch buildings right now because we will change their stats all together with workers.

This update for buildings is still being planned.

Yes it is required for balancing but it requires tons of work to balance everything.

We do not even have ready images for tiered workers AND laborers.
We also need 2 levels of ambidextria tech for elves (images + stats).
We need stats, images and such for undead siege.
We need to define stats for walls, other fortifications and megas.
We need to redefine bonuses to buildings in general for all units.

That is why i am saying that it must be its own separate bigass update. «BUILDINGS UPDATE».

Feel free though to add new buildings with beta stats if needed.

[makazuwr32]

As for healing of orcs - actually second could work.
If they will get healer that will heal for fixed amount orcs and goblins while for giants it will use % based healing (maybe 50% one).
Also this shaman can be locked behind sub as well.

[Savra]

Troll shaman correct? I was already behind the idea of trolls becoming a unlockable sub.

As for undead siege, it you post stats and reference images here or in separate topic I could make them real quick.

[makazuwr32]

MOST suggested ones:
(including my own ideas too)

Undead siege needed

Cemetery reaper no use - make use

Elves little cheaper techs (4/5/6 turns cost instead of 4/6/8 ? )

Elves too fragile buildings (? was not sure what is the planned/suggested change)

Elf Ent demolisher nedds range and little toughness (hp/armor)

Orc regeneration be smaller in range and power (and/or not for all orc race units?)

Orc units in separate buildings, and not in TC (and giants, minitors into ttheir own buildings)

Orc water units are ruling all other races

Ettins being less invincible

Maybe Orc raptor rider is too strong

Cementary reaper will get its use when infection will become a thing but only if it will get ability to aoe raise zombies from corpses.

For elves only main blacksmith techs require lowering cost - armor, shield, bow, sword.

Buildings of all races will be updated once in separate update. They will get as mentioned above major overhaul. Some buildings will get additional traits.

Ent demolisher is not too fragile. It has 2 main big problems: speed and range. If we will solve at least one of them than it will become useful. Its armor can be increased already via ent toughness techs (2 tiers).

Orcs indeed must have that % hp healing to be locked somewhere behind sub and its effectiveness must be lowered down to 50% max. Not sure about limiting its effect to only set of unit types but could work as well if orcs will get a viable replacement (i mean heal rate for "healing" spell).

Not sure about units but leveling techs of orcs mist definately not be accessable in tc.

Orcish water units are definately powerful but only because other races did not get everything they required for themselves. Even humans for now are still lacking 2 types of ships - mending ship (water-moving worker) and ballista ship.
Alas i can't say that orcs are ruling over all other races in water fights. Undeads have one of the best naval units -ghost vessel - and due to it they are able if used right to defeat orcs.
Only problem is that orcish naval units are trainable in any tc and thus they always will get mlre naval units than other races. Not sure how to solve this problem...

If orcs will loose their 100% regen etting will become already weaker.
Alas i think their cost must be a bit higher - 9 turns probably.

Raptor rider is fine by itself but problem is that it has speed 6 for 3 turns while being lancer. I would like to change it into full sized lancer with speed 5/5/6 and fost 4 while increasing its other stats (hp and armor mainly, maybe also slight increase of attack). But in this case orcs will need proper melee replacement for scout unit.

Troll shaman correct? I was already behind the idea of trolls becoming a unlockable sub.

No alex wants trolls to be part of main army. Especially because only trolls have skirmisher unit.

Alas i think burning must be more effective against trolls. And also units with burning weapons must have higher bonuses as well.

[makazuwr32]

Skeleton ball is idea of ramming ball of corpses.
Can't search right now but here on forum was somewhere topic about it.

As for ranged siege of undeads - we do not even have any proper idea right now.
If it will be skeleton than it will require 3 tiers (skeleton ball is exeption because it is actually just a ball of corpses).
If it will be something else and not a skeleton than it will require only 1 tier and 1 image (and thus different way to balance).

[Stratego (dev)]

The problem here is that we are planning major overhaul of all buildings stats

Makaw: ok, than not THAT building upgrade. But if all of you think elf buildings not ok now than we can change regardless of planned overhaul.

So if needed for balance we change, if not needed we dont change.

So my main point: we should not say "dont touch" something just because we will sometime change things.
We change now a little if needed, so we get balance. and when planned change comes these also can change further.

So please say all changes needed for balance regardles it "will" change later or not.

Thanks!

[makazuwr32]

Well if you say so than i'd say to balance things for now at least you can allow for elves to research ambidextria as well as change their main worker-type unit from ent worker to elf worker.

Later we want to change ent worker into laborer (can't start cosntruction but has 2 turn cost and has better mend rate/cost ratio than worker). If you want i can provide stats for this change as well.

Also we planned already for thorn bushes ability to grow up (via construction with low mend rate).
Let's say give thorn bushes ability to start construction of other thorn bushes as well as 3-4 mend rate.

This can be made right now and these efforts will not be wasted because it already is planned.

Another change that can be made is increasing construction rate of wolf den and other towers of elves up to 0% (currently construction rate is lower on few elven towers).

Also what can be changed for balancing of orcs - reduce construction rate of all their factories down to 0% but also reduce their health down to 30 hp (for all buildings, carved monster cave must have alas 50% construction rate bonus) and armor down to 0/6 (again for all buildings).

[Stratego (dev)]

awesome you all are!

ok i have updating the lines in first post and writing the alternatives of suggested solutions.

[Stratego (dev)]

If they will get healer that will heal for fixed amount orcs and goblins while for giants it will use % based healing (maybe 50% one).

sorry i am being dumb, not sure i understnad, so you mean:
- Healer is locked behind in a subrace building/tech.
- it heals to 100% but only its own subrace units
- but still heals all other units in race but with less percentage? like max 50% healing.

is that you say?

[Stratego (dev)]

i feel cemetary reaper is not a balance problem - having it or not does not make lose balance - do i have good understanding? (if so i remove from list for now)