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Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:16 pm
by Jasondunkel
TntAttack wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 4:16 pm
Jasondunkel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:17 pm
sorry for not posting here for so long.
but in real life there was and is a lot going on.
I would like to change it like this.
1. drejade your suggestion for the SMG will be accepted.
2. since the smg has both grenades they are elite the production should be increased to 3 cost. since they are elite they will only be able to be built in the barracks.
Since the light tanks are in the game with 3 round costs, this is not a contradiction
3. I would like to give the riflemen a range advantage so that they get range 2 and optionally a first strike, but leave the actual attack power
2. About time. Will their anti grenade damages stay the same? What about their anti infantry damages. Both I think are a tiny bit too high.
3. I really like this suggestion, no first strike though I reckon. My only concern is what to do about mortar infantry range... Should we increase it? Otherwise a regular rifleman will have to same range as a mortar Unit.
Actually, it's not a bad idea. Increase mortar range to 3 while you are at it.
Edit: I realised this might made mortars a bit too op so seem trade-offs... Either
- Mortar Unit costs 3
- Mortar Unit Damage reduction
- Mortar Unit range from 2-3 so it can't hit units right next to it.
at the moment I would leave the damage as it is from the grants.
as i suggested if the rifleman should get a range increase then the rifleman and the mortar would have the same range
if we increase the range of mortars we would have to give the tanks a longer range as well
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:24 pm
by DreJaDe
Jasondunkel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:17 pm
2. since the smg has both grenades they are elite the production should be increased to 3 cost. since they are elite they will only be able to be built in the barracks.
A double nerf?
I think one is enough (either 3 turns or exclusive to barracks) and test if its still OP.
Jasondunkel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:17 pm
3. I would like to give the riflemen a range advantage so that they get range 2 and optionally a first strike, but leave the actual attack power
Either first strike or 2 range.
To be honest, I like them to just have an increased damage but with that...
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 7:24 am
by TntAttack
Jasondunkel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:16 pm
TntAttack wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 4:16 pm
Jasondunkel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:17 pm
sorry for not posting here for so long.
but in real life there was and is a lot going on.
I would like to change it like this.
1. drejade your suggestion for the SMG will be accepted.
2. since the smg has both grenades they are elite the production should be increased to 3 cost. since they are elite they will only be able to be built in the barracks.
Since the light tanks are in the game with 3 round costs, this is not a contradiction
3. I would like to give the riflemen a range advantage so that they get range 2 and optionally a first strike, but leave the actual attack power
2. About time. Will their anti grenade damages stay the same? What about their anti infantry damages. Both I think are a tiny bit too high.
3. I really like this suggestion, no first strike though I reckon. My only concern is what to do about mortar infantry range... Should we increase it? Otherwise a regular rifleman will have to same range as a mortar Unit.
Actually, it's not a bad idea. Increase mortar range to 3 while you are at it.
Edit: I realised this might made mortars a bit too op so seem trade-offs... Either
- Mortar Unit costs 3
- Mortar Unit Damage reduction
- Mortar Unit range from 2-3 so it can't hit units right next to it.
at the moment I would leave the damage as it is from the grants.
as i suggested if the rifleman should get a range increase then the rifleman and the mortar would have the same range
if we increase the range of mortars we would have to give the tanks a longer range as well
Either:
- You increase the ranges of mortars, tanks...
Or
- Give mortars a 3 range ability that deals less damage than its base non ability damage. Enough to harass the enemy, if you were following my thread about giving mortars a supression effect, here would be where to put it. A light suppressed effect will do e.g. -1 attack or defense or speed.
I personally think it's better to increase the range of tanks, but it's not a simple task so a quicker solution might be preferable.
Also. I agree with Drejade with the double nerf. One nerf should be enough. For convenience, making smgs cost 3 is more balanced and fair overall.
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 7:43 am
by DreJaDe
TntAttack wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 4:16 pm
Actually, it's not a bad idea. Increase mortar range to 3 while you are at it.
Be careful, not all mortar have higher range than normal guns.
The british and german actually used 2inch mortar that only have 500m range. With even effective range only reaching like 100m.
Literally many SMG outrange that.
I suggest like SMG and MG, just name them.
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:08 am
by Stratego (dev)
yes, mortars should be range 1 (and was that earlier) - it was only changed because of player requests... but totally non historical having bigger range than eg. tank guns.
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:28 am
by DreJaDe
Stratego (dev) wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:08 am
yes, mortars should be range 1 (and was that earlier) - it was only changed because of player requests... but totally non historical having bigger range than eg. tank guns.
Okay okay... Although I said there are mortars with small range, many mortars used actually have range more than 3km.
You have US m1 and m2
British 4.2 inch
German 10cm
...
Then there's
Soviet M1938
6km range dude
Tank guns may have a lot of range but that is only straight shooting which can lead to obstacles or the 45degree rule.
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:56 am
by Stratego (dev)
sure those can hae 2 range legally.
but the < 1,5km mortars should not.
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 3:55 pm
by Dahdee
Jasondunkel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:17 pm
I would like to give the riflemen a range advantage so that they get range 2 and optionally a first strike, but leave the actual attack power
I like the idea of increasing rifleman range to 2. I'm not sure I like the first strike thing though.
That being said, if we were to add an ability like digging a foxhole to rifleman, I think adding first strike would then be appropriate.
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 4:01 pm
by Dahdee
DreJaDe wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:28 am
Stratego (dev) wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:08 am
yes, mortars should be range 1 (and was that earlier) - it was only changed because of player requests... but totally non historical having bigger range than eg. tank guns.
Okay okay... Although I said there are mortars with small range, many mortars used actually have range more than 3km.
You have US m1 and m2
British 4.2 inch
German 10cm
...
Then there's
Soviet M1938
6km range dude
Tank guns may have a lot of range but that is only straight shooting which can lead to obstacles or the 45degree rule.
Can we do something to make the mortars of different armies represent their real life counterparts, instead of the one size fits all range they currently have?
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 4:25 pm
by Dahdee
Also, I 100% agree with the SMG rebalance that this thread was originally about.
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 4:52 pm
by SS-Jericho
Can we do something to make the mortars of different armies represent their real life counterparts, instead of the one size fits all range they currently have?
The problem with this is every nation uses different types of mortars. Allies are fond with light mortars 60mm which has a short range for infantry support. The germans and russians mostly uses the 81/82mm mortar (2-3km range), and they also field 120mm mortars (6km range).
Maybe focus on the mortars that have more than 1.5km but not the heavy mortars? So every nations have their base unit of mortar. And other types of mortar may just be added in the future.
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 5:06 pm
by DreJaDe
SS-Jericho wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 4:52 pm
Maybe focus on the mortars that have more than 1.5km but not the heavy mortars? So every nations have their base unit of mortar. And other types of mortar may just be added in the future.
I do have a plan on naming the mortars and separating the two from light to heavy.
If you look at the images, I created the base of the two types there in case I continued.
Though not much for now cause... I have yet to still see some of the approved updates.
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:03 pm
by Stratego (dev)
Dahdee wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 3:55 pm
Jasondunkel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:17 pm
I would like to give the riflemen a range advantage so that they get range 2 and optionally a first strike, but leave the actual attack power
I like the idea of increasing rifleman range to 2. I'm not sure I like the first strike thing though.
That being said, if we were to add an ability like digging a foxhole to rifleman, I think adding first strike would then be appropriate.
they should not have 2 range.
all ranges should be increased than and all units will be more than one range.
half o mechanics would vanish and plaayability reduced
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:29 pm
by DreJaDe
Stratego (dev) wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:03 pm
they should not have 2 range.
all ranges should be increased than and all units will be more than one range.
half o mechanics would vanish and plaayability reduced
Looking at it again. Rifleman having two range is indeed weird cause firefights even in modern standard only get to 500m max.
And its kinda useless to even do so cause you usually cant see the enemy at that distance.
In most cases, everyone is just shooting against each other by actually shooting in the general direction instead of like games and movies where you can actually see the enemy.
First strike is nice but tbh, I think rifleman having higher damage than smg would be even better or even just the same.
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:55 pm
by Dahdee
DreJaDe wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:29 pm
I think rifleman having higher damage than smg would be even better or even just the same.
I would support this.
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 7:11 pm
by Jasondunkel
I suggested range two for the riffleman because the german standard rifle could effectively shoot up to 2 km. English wiki says 1 km but a maximum range of almost 4.5 km
since the attack power is low, the riffleman would be improved a bit. especially because it is the actual core of the respective infantry.
But we should discuss that in another area, just like with the mortars
So I open two new topics
drejade says yes he wants to revise the gunmen
so to finish the smg:
you get the production costs of 3 may be built in cities and barracks
everyone agree??
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:36 pm
by Dahdee
I agree
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:35 am
by TntAttack
Agree.
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:47 am
by DreJaDe
Agree
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:09 pm
by Stratego (dev)
Jasondunkel wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 7:11 pm
I suggested range two for the riffleman because the german standard rifle could effectively shoot up to 2 km. English wiki says 1 km but a maximum range of almost 4.5 km
but if we accept this than we should increase all tank ranges too - that is not possible.
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:58 am
by Stratego (dev)
final list of changes to smg (from email by Jasondunkel)
ALL smg Units gets cost 3
-----------------------------------
Common stats
(besides when written specifically under specific smg unit)
action: 2
Attack: 2
Speed: 3
Bonus
%700 - Vehicle Non combat
%400 - Buildings
%1000 - Heavy Buildings
US Thompson SMG
HP: 30
Action: 3
Bonus
%600 - infantry
British Sten SMG
HP: 35
Bonus
%850 - infantry
German Mp40 SMG
HP: 32
Bonus
%900 - infantry
Soviet Ppd
HP: 40
Action: 3
Bonus
%550 - infantry
French Mas-38
Hp: 38
Bonus
%700 - infantry
Japanese Type 100 smg
HP: 40
Bonus
%700 - infantry
Italian Beretta Model 38
HP: 32
Bonus
%800 - Infantry
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 2:32 pm
by SS-Jericho
What about the damage bonus for Chinese SMG? Should it be changed or be left untouched?
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:12 pm
by Stratego (dev)
@DreJaDe please suggest chienese smg too, we need to change that too as we changed all others already.
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:47 am
by DreJaDe
Here
Chinese Bermann SMG
HP: 42
Atk: 2
Bonus:
%600 infantry
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:32 am
by Stratego (dev)
is it the "MP 18" smg?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP_18
also bonus against only infantry?
other smg units have various bonuses eg:
"trnBonusList":[
{ "modifier":7, "unitList":{ "categories":[ "U_VEHICLE_NONCOMBAT" ] } },
{ "modifier":8, "unitList":{ "categories":[ "U_INFANTRY" ] } },
{ "modifier":4, "unitList":{ "categories":[ "U_BUILDINGS" ] } },
{ "modifier":10, "unitList":{ "categories":[ "U_GROUND_BUILDING_MEGA" ] } }
],
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:05 pm
by DreJaDe
Yes and
There is a common stats for all smg I defined on the initial posts on this suggestion. Meaning that its not just bonus for infantry.
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:38 pm
by Stratego (dev)
ok, please write here what bonuses should i set - thanks!
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:24 pm
by Stratego (dev)
ok, for now i set this, tll me if ok.
"trnBonusList":[
{ "modifier":7, "unitList":{ "categories":[ "U_VEHICLE_NONCOMBAT" ] } },
{ "modifier":6, "unitList":{ "categories":[ "U_INFANTRY" ] } },
{ "modifier":4, "unitList":{ "categories":[ "U_BUILDINGS" ] } },
{ "modifier":10, "unitList":{ "categories":[ "U_GROUND_BUILDING_MEGA" ] } }
],
--------------
alkso i set the cost to 3 as i see all other smg goes to 3
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:53 am
by Jasondunkel
DreJaDe wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:24 pm
Jasondunkel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:17 pm
2. since the smg has both grenades they are elite the production should be increased to 3 cost. since they are elite they will only be able to be built in the barracks.
A double nerf?
I think one is enough (either 3 turns or exclusive to barracks) and test if its still OP.
after testing i think it is still OP . i still see the smg in barracks
Re: Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:12 pm
by DreJaDe
Jasondunkel wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:53 am
after testing i think it is still OP . i still see the smg in barracks
Against 4 turn tanks?
I usually need more than 2-3 smg to defeat one tank.
Thats already more too much considering now that smg now cost 3 turns. That means i need more than 6 turn worth of smf for 4 turn tank.
This makes the anti gun more of an option but Im honestly on the opinion of barracks exclusive smg now than the 3 turn in the 3turn vs barracks exclusive nerf for smg.