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"attackPercent" for jsons
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:06 pm
by L4cus
I just realized how usefull this would be for all ao games to have the attack modified by a multiplier just like hp is modified by "hpMaxPercent"
Lots lf osibilities would be achiwved with this, having effects/techs/auras that benefit ssteingunts the most intead of having hard numbers as modofiers...
I think all modders agree, and i hope stratego could program this small detail...i would be really glad
Re: "attackPercent" for jsons
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:53 am
by makazuwr32
Actually... In aof we are trying to get rid of most if not all % based things because it is multiplicative.
What do i mean is that if you have 3 techs each increasing hp by let's say 40% you will get in total instead of 1+0.4+0.4+0.4=2.2 of base hp 1.4*1.4*1.4=2.744 of base hp or +54.4% extra.
And this is even more problematic in aof now since numbers have been increased.
In case of numbers around 50 hp max that is not feelable too much. But in case of 600 hp+ this is actually very feelable difference.
Another moment: right now we have in aof castle-type building for dwarves with 8000 hp. We wanted to give for dwarves human techs for hp increase but it will result in becoming that mega building with whooping 18000 hp.
I am not against this feature. I am saying that you must be much more careful when you will use it when it will be implemented unless that multiplicative behaviour will be changed into addictive.
In aof though we are trying to not use % based abilities and techs exept healing (that is also we want to nerf later).
So do not say such things as "All ao dev will be glad". Not all of them.
Re: "attackPercent" for jsons
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:10 am
by Endru1241
More options are always welcomed by me, but for AoS I am not 100% sure if it would be used.
What I'd really want to see, related to attack is spec, bool or new stat, that would allow me to have attack power boosts, that are exempted from damage bonuses (added at the end).
Because huge damage bonuses mess with balance much more.
%attack boosts would be absolutely essential if defense(armor) would have any percentage decrease of damage option.
Re: "attackPercent" for jsons
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:44 am
by L4cus
makazuwr32 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:53 am
Actually... In aof we are trying to get rid of most if not all % based things because it is multiplicative.
What do i mean is that if you have 3 techs each increasing hp by let's say 40% you will get in total instead of 1+0.4+0.4+0.4=2.2 of base hp 1.4*1.4*1.4=2.744 of base hp or +54.4% extra.
And this is even more problematic in aof now since numbers have been increased.
In case of numbers around 50 hp max that is not feelable too much. But in case of 600 hp+ this is actually very feelable difference.
Another moment: right now we have in aof castle-type building for dwarves with 8000 hp. We wanted to give for dwarves human techs for hp increase but it will result in becoming that mega building with whooping 18000 hp.
I am not against this feature. I am saying that you must be much more careful when you will use it when it will be implemented unless that multiplicative behaviour will be changed into addictive.
In aof though we are trying to not use % based abilities and techs exept healing (that is also we want to nerf later).
So do not say such things as "All ao dev will be glad". Not all of them.
Didnt think abiur it, that could be very dangerrous. I still thik This could be usefull, with certain limitation...
Endru1241 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:10 am
More options are always welcomed by me, but for AoS I am not 100% sure if it would be used.
What I'd really want to see, related to attack is spec, bool or new stat, that would allow me to have attack power boosts, that are exempted from damage bonuses (added at the end).
Because huge damage bonuses mess with balance much more.
%attack boosts would be absolutely essential if defense(armor) would have any percentage decrease of damage option.
Idk if ia m getting it wrong, i think u talk about armour decreasing a percentage of the attack right? That reminds me to age of empires 3 and age of mythology, both with this kind of feature. I played them both, and i can say thaats a pretty nice feature to include in ao games...
Thanks for ur comentaries, i can see how veteran think, such a great show! Sorry for saying all modders would agree...i willl be more carefull with my speach
Re: "attackPercent" for jsons
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:08 pm
by makazuwr32
Endru means that bonus numerical attack value (those "+x" to attack) that will not be affected by bonus on unit.
For example i have a pikeman with attack 100 (do not ask how) and 450% bonus to cavalry and a buffer unit that can give +100 attack to unit with that effect of endru. Enemy cav unit has for example 50 armor.
Normally it will be next:
TD = (A + BAC) x (1 + B) – EA = (100 + 100) x (1 + 4.5) – 50 = 200 x 5.5 – 50 = 1050.
Endru wants next:
TD = A x (1 + B) + BAN – EA = 100 x (1 + 4.5) + 100 – 50 = 100 x 5.5 + 50 = 600.
(Legend:
Base Attack — A
Bonus Attack Current — BAC
Bonus Attack New — BAN
Total damage — TD
Enemy Armor — EA
Bonus on unit — B)
At least that's his first proposition.
Re: "attackPercent" for jsons
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:28 pm
by L4cus
Ohhh i think it can be done with spells right? Like a one turn poison that activates at the moment of the attack..
Isnt it possible?
Re: "attackPercent" for jsons
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:51 pm
by Endru1241
L4cus wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:28 pm
Ohhh i think it can be done with spells right? Like a one turn poison that activates at the moment of the attack..
Isnt it possible?
Not entirely.
You forgot armor.
Enemy armor has to be able to decrease whole attack value.
If damage would be added by effect then either it would be decreased by armor once again or ignore it.
Adding damage by weapon effect would be viable for damage unaffected by armor (actually it part of my vague plan to change gunpowder units in AoS - have part of attack as ignoring armor ability).
Re: "attackPercent" for jsons
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:02 pm
by Stratego (dev)
it can be set that an effect should be reduced by normal armor - if you mean that.
Re: "attackPercent" for jsons
Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:16 pm
by Endru1241
That wouldn't work.
Max(RoundDown(AttackPower * (1+ bonus) + addPower - enemyArmor, 0), 1)
is not the same as:
Max(RoundDown(AttackPower * (1+ bonus) - enemyArmor, 0), 1) + Max(RoundDown(effectDamage -enemyArmor, 0), 1)
Let's say I want to increase spearman attackPower by +3, unaffected by damage bonuses.
Attacking knight, I expect:
4 x (1+4.5) +3 -2 = 23
And I'd get:
4 x (1+4.5) -2 +3 -2= 21
If however I'd use noarmor decrease on effect attacking Hoplite I'd expect:
4+3-8=-1, so upped to 1 damage
And I'd get:
4-8=-4, upped to 1 + 3, total damage 4.
Re: "attackPercent" for jsons
Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:23 pm
by L4cus
then u can set it to be affected by armor but don set bonus to that damage...
But there would still be a problem...for aod i have some units with specunitacion and the damage of spell would not be affected...using only spells is pretty limited
Re: "attackPercent" for jsons
Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:43 pm
by Endru1241
L4cus wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:23 pm
then u can set it to be affected by armor but don set bonus to that damage...
It's the same thing as stratego already said.
And I counted it in calculations:
Endru1241 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:16 pm
4 x (1+4.5) -2 +3 -2= 21
Armor would be counted as double then!
And damage would be 2 on some heavily armored units, that damage should normally be 1.
Re: "attackPercent" for jsons
Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:34 pm
by L4cus
oh thats true
T_T