Age of Strategy Forums

▶ The Issue:

So I had my war elephant protected by Herb Protection and it was in the front line.
the opponent used a yumi Samurai enhanced by both weak/slow poisoning to stop my war elephant.
The next round, the poison effect wore off, but still couldn't move the elephant and this cycle kept repeating.
Once hit by it, it's stuck as long as the arrows keep coming.

Also, Bard's Adventure Song didn't appear to help.
It would be nice if the slow poison's speed reduction effect wouldn't stack up just the same as Adventure song or other speed boost abilities don't just to counter it.

Actually I would go further and prevent the slow poison (but keep the weak poison) from being given to ranged units entirely, as the biggest herbalist user I've seen in the game, I say that's where her inbalance comes from, ranged units simply not allowing melee units to move as they kite back is too strong.

Edit: an option would be:
-instead of slow poison, she could give the normal and weak poisons to both ranged and melee units, but the slow poison only to melee
-reduce the weak poison damage per turn from 3 to 1
-reduce the time to research the slow poison from 5 to 4 turns
(This option would make melee units have 2 less damage per turn than current (total: 7), but access to it 1 turn earlier, and ranged units have the same damage per turn than current (total: 5), 5 turns earlier, but without the slow)

Edit2: another option would be:
-instead of slow poison, she could only give the weak poison to both ranged and melee units, and the others only to melee
-increase the damage per turn of the weak poison from 3 to 5
-increase the time to research the weak poison from 4 to 5 turns
(This option would make melee units have 2 more damage per turn than current (total: 11), but access to it 1 turn later, and ranged units have the same damage per turn than current (total: 5), 4 turns earlier, but without the slow)

Edit3: some tweaks to the numbers

Edit4: a third option:
-instead of slow poison, she could give the normal and weak poisons to both ranged and melee units, but the slow poison only to melee
-turn the normal poison into a research that requires 3 turns to complete
-reduce the damage per turn of the weak poison from 3 to 2
-reduce the time to research the slow poison from 5 to 4 turns
(This option would make melee units have 1 less damage per turn than current (total: 8), and access to it 2 turns later, and ranged units have 1 more damage per turn than current (total: 6), 2 turns earlier, but without the slow)

Wat about this, keep everything the same as it is but change the mechanic so that only the damage part stack but atk and speed reduction only occurs once for the debuff

I think that would also be a good option, but is it possible to do that?

It is possible to apply via on-hit abilities more than 1 effect. They may have different duration, different stackability and other things.

makazuwr32 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:13 am It is possible to apply via on-hit abilities more than 1 effect. They may have different duration, different stackability and other things.

Only cannot have different valid targets.
It's resolved as a list and stops processing latter ones if current one cannot be applied.
Run related first spec only reverses order for particular effect, I think.

godOfKings wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:08 am Wat about this, keep everything the same as it is but change the mechanic so that only the damage part stack but atk and speed reduction only occurs once for the debuff

I was thinking of that since the start, but they would be nothing special then.
The real problem is the bug (or engine feature) of removing possibility to move if on the turn start speed is 0.

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:44 pm I was thinking of that since the start, but they would be nothing special then.
The real problem is the bug (or engine feature) of removing possibility to move if on the turn start speed is 0.

What about a non-stackable speed reduction of 2 that can't drop the unit's speed below 1, is that possible?

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:44 pm

godOfKings wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:08 am Wat about this, keep everything the same as it is but change the mechanic so that only the damage part stack but atk and speed reduction only occurs once for the debuff

I was thinking of that since the start, but they would be nothing special then.
The real problem is the bug (or engine feature) of removing possibility to move if on the turn start speed is 0.

It is not a bug alas, i believe.
It is a feature that was added due to alex request for one of abilities.
Well right now we can update them to work same way without this by applying 2 different effects but before it was not possible.

b2198 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:02 pm

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:44 pm I was thinking of that since the start, but they would be nothing special then.
The real problem is the bug (or engine feature) of removing possibility to move if on the turn start speed is 0.

What about a non-stackable speed reduction of 2 that can't drop the unit's speed below 1, is that possible?

Nope.
There is no minimum values, max number of stacked effects or any other dynamic condition.
Engine doesn't have much conditions, that could be added to effects overall.
There is only few specs and ValidTargets settings based on unitType / categories plus resistance, which is not used for most AoS effects.

makazuwr32 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:11 am

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:44 pm

godOfKings wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:08 am Wat about this, keep everything the same as it is but change the mechanic so that only the damage part stack but atk and speed reduction only occurs once for the debuff

I was thinking of that since the start, but they would be nothing special then.
The real problem is the bug (or engine feature) of removing possibility to move if on the turn start speed is 0.

It is not a bug alas, i believe.
It is a feature that was added due to alex request for one of abilities.
Well right now we can update them to work same way without this by applying 2 different effects but before it was not possible.

And it worked great for all AoF applications, I assume.
Yet it's not really good for AoS, since introduction of slowing poison.
This is a great example of potential reason why I am generally against complicated engine logic and asking for making changes as options everywhere it's possible.

Well right now it is possible to achieve same effect we need by applying 2 effects via 1 ability.
So i am fine if we will revert back this behaviour.

@Stratego (dev), do you think it would be possible to change engine behaviour about 0 (or less) speed?
Right now it is:
if unit has 0 speed on the start of the turn move action is turned off no matter the latter speed.
What it could be:
possibility to move should be recalculated on speed changes - every effect that adds speed to be above 0 should trigger possibility to move back in.

i am not sure i understand: there is nothing like removing speed on turn start.

on turn start the remaining-steps is updated basedon movement steps spec of the unit.
maybe that is the problem somehow
(but not sure i see the problem - i have not read back all posts)

The exact issue is related to Herb protection effect.
It removes slowing poison effect (which decreases speed), but move calculation is already done and the unit cannot move, even when effect was removed.
The issue is even worse, because we are talking about elephant unit being affected, which has speed boosting castable effect.
And it doesn't work in such case.
As well as other speed buffs, like e.g. bard adventure song.

i have found this in code:

//2017.02.04 dont updateremainingmovement ifit was already moved this turn, that should remain the same


so it ws a reason - but i have not wrote it

whatever i have changed it so, if speed changed than remainingmovement will change with the same value.

uos 5

i have probably messed up something

any speed changing effect, tech or anything

Wait.
So there is no flag for already moved and the only indicator of that is remaining movement?

Then it can create problems.
Because all buffs would suddenly allow movement, even for units, that have already moved.

Can you also change on move action execution to give something like -1000 remaining movement?
Then it should still affect last turn of speed debuff like proposed, but already moved units won't be affected by buffs.

It could also easily open road for spec like "can move multiple times" that would just not apply any negative changes for remaining moves.

BTW. I have tested and confirmed, that unit regains movement after being applied speed buff. For good and worse.

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:10 pm The exact issue is related to Herb protection effect.
It removes slowing poison effect (which decreases speed), but move calculation is already done and the unit cannot move, even when effect was removed.
The issue is even worse, because we are talking about elephant unit being affected, which has speed boosting castable effect.
And it doesn't work in such case.
As well as other speed buffs, like e.g. bard adventure song.

I'm not sure it's directly related to Herb protection, I'm not entirely sure about this one (don't play a lot against people who actually use herbalists in this way), but from what I remember, her herb protection only "protects" against normal poison, and does nothing for the weak and slow poisons, but general healings remove them.

@Foxious Since you are playing against my herbalists, can you check if that is accurate?

b2198 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:35 am

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:10 pm The exact issue is related to Herb protection effect.
It removes slowing poison effect (which decreases speed), but move calculation is already done and the unit cannot move, even when effect was removed.
The issue is even worse, because we are talking about elephant unit being affected, which has speed boosting castable effect.
And it doesn't work in such case.
As well as other speed buffs, like e.g. bard adventure song.

I'm not sure it's directly related to Herb protection, I'm not entirely sure about this one (don't play a lot against people who actually use herbalists in this way), but from what I remember, her herb protection only "protects" against normal poison, and does nothing for the weak and slow poisons, but general healings remove them.

@Foxious Since you are playing against my herbalists, can you check if that is accurate?

The herb protection ability was meant to protect against any effects of poisons.
However due to technical reasons I had to change it somehow to make it possible to be implemented.
So herb protection has gives weak regenerarion and it removes all poisons at the start of the turn.

I also tested if it works properly, when I saw issue topic.

Was was the issue here was game engine working differently, than anticipated.

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:37 am The herb protection ability was meant to protect against any effects of poisons.

That would make her weak and slow poisons even more of a niche strategy, since an enemy herbalist would almost completely negate their combined 9 turns of research in advancement center.

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:37 am However due to technical reasons I had to change it somehow to make it possible to be implemented.
So herb protection has gives weak regenerarion and it removes all poisons at the start of the turn.

Oh, so that is how it actually works, it's hard to see that in action because bots don't know what a herbalist is, much less her researches, and against players you would only see the state of things after the enemy turn, in which usually the enemy unit either died or was healed back to full life and no poisons.

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:05 pm Wait.
So there is no flag for already moved and the only indicator of that is remaining movement?

Then it can create problems.
Because all buffs would suddenly allow movement, even for units, that have already moved.

Can you also change on move action execution to give something like -1000 remaining movement?
Then it should still affect last turn of speed debuff like proposed, but already moved units won't be affected by buffs.

It could also easily open road for spec like "can move multiple times" that would just not apply any negative changes for remaining moves.

BTW. I have tested and confirmed, that unit regains movement after being applied speed buff. For good and worse.

@Stratego (dev) ?

i am confused: so we made they need to move again, now you say they should not?
i must have missing something here

"all buffs"
no, only ALL speed buffs (that increase speed)

also i dont really like this way: " to give something like -1000 remaining movement"

so i am not sure: i see you tested it - cool! - but what is the problem with the new modified verison? is there a case where it cause problem now? please give me example

Ok.
Currently it works like:
1. On turn start if unit has 0 speed it's movement points become 0. This was done, because effects end right after, so without it - speed decreasing effects would last 1 turn shorter, than displayed.
2. When unit moves, no matter how many tiles it's movement points are set to 0.
3. When unit gets speed buff it's move points are recalculated,based on current speed.

Before change - point 3 only worked if unit has move points > 0.

What is desired here is to make unit be affected by 3. if 1. occurred, but NOT if 2 occurred this turn.
And not completely recalculate move points, but add as many as should be added by speed boost (or decrease in case of negative speed).

Of course it would be great if effect could be set to to work like currently, but as an option. Because allowing movement for units, that already moved is much stronger, than just increasing movement.

i know i am being stupid, but please tell me a unit and a some buff that causes problem as i still dont undertsand, the problem is the 2nd walking? i dont see that as a BIG problem, it is a rare case and reasonable, received more speed? - than give it to him and lets go!

the only change here is if a unit receives extra speed he can walk that extra - only that extra steps! - (even if it was moving already - so this case having 2 moving actions but in total can only move same SUM of tiles as new increased speed)


so pelase write me an example case that is problematic so we can talk about an example - thanks!

In aof we have a possibility to get extra +5 speed on some units (and even more).
The thing is that they must not move again if they moved already and than got bonus speed.

You moved — your movement ends here. No matter the circumstances after movement.

Why? I think it is more fair to move the new 5 movements

The whole problem here is imbalance of exactly 2 separate moves.
Because it's not about the sum of tiles, but possibility to attack and retreat e.g. back to tower or attack two different targets (in case of multiple action unit). It is huge tactical advantage.

And yet such advantage would only affect units buffed in this particular turn. Questions arise:
If buffed unit can move twice - why not unbuffed unit with the same speed?
Why not the unit, that was buffed in previous turn?

Generally speaking - speed boosts turn from travel help and a tool for extending attack range to complete game changer something in many cases better than action boost.

I dont see big problem this boost already a buff. Lets call it extra speed AND second mive option.