Age of Strategy Forums

First I'm sorry if this could be heard bias (some leaders and forumers might know this), yet I have another look for ram.

Currently ram is not as powerful as a siege unit, due to long-ranged heavy missiles, need to be spawn a lot (reminded me of Digimon666 who once spawned rams like a chain of trains from his base to his opps) and slow in defensive mode (or, actually, fragile in fast lower mode).

All of these as far as I know, is fine, since ram is considered cheap both to be built by builders (somewhat slower in current verslog but that's not the issue) and upgraded.

There are some strats involving ram (I know little so anyone can show his achievement with ram), current hot pot is defensive ram barrier (spam ram as punchbag in the front while long-ranged unit do the task).

However, again, as a pure siege unit they are kinda weak, however much stats they have as even in early game many can easily counter them.

So I have an outlook suit for them imho as siege unit:

1. Allow garrison attack from inside (alas only melee, as there's siege tower for ranged unit but who know, or maybe we can talk about siege tower in other thread) .

2. Higher tiers have power range to destroy surrounding building faster than othe long-ranged siege unit (or is it already planted in it? I didn't use any ram for long time in MP so need to be confirmed).

3. Reduce cost from factory, from 5 to 4 turn.

4. Allow defensive mode garrisoned in TC (I despise this idea a lot, but again another brainstorm if other forumers have favor for the point).

5. As I pointed the fragility of fast lower mode ram (it looked like one of F1 cars or one of Tamiya cars I collect from childhood ) and how slow they are (and here also points fragility, mainly in frontline as being easy target), I suggest a new ability gained via tech for them silmaril with elephant run tech: grant more speed in sacrifice of action.

Open positive discussion in hope that some enhancement granted for ram, not to just say, "It's already cheap as you said so get it and get off!"

Aral_Yaren wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:49 pm There are some strats involving ram (I know little so anyone can show his achievement with ram), current hot pot is defensive ram barrier (spam ram as punchbag in the front while long-ranged unit do the task).

This was what I used to do before the spam nerf, now imo catapults, mantelets, wagons and in some circunstances even ballistas or hwachas (as weak as they are right now) are more viable to dedicate builders to produce, but mainly, if the map has a decent amount of water on it, dedicating builders to make ships is a far better investment of turns in most situations.

Aral_Yaren wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:49 pm 1. Allow garrison attack from inside (alas only melee, as there's siege tower for ranged unit but who know, or maybe we can talk about siege tower in other thread) .

I might be mistaken here, but I think the only way that would be possible would be to make it so that only melee units can enter it, which... is an interesting idea, since there's already not only siege tower as you said, but also siege mantelet for ranged units and misc., and this would allow counterplay against their counters, by, for example, putting celtic warriors inside to deal with enemy melee anti-siege units.

Aral_Yaren wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:49 pm 2. Higher tiers have power range to destroy surrounding building faster than othe long-ranged siege unit (or is it already planted in it? I didn't use any ram for long time in MP so need to be confirmed).

Also an interesting idea, since it's very hard to make them actually reach the buildings, so the reward for getting there could be a bit higher.

Aral_Yaren wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:49 pm 3. Reduce cost from factory, from 5 to 4 turn.

This paired with 1 and/or 2 would make them very op imho, but in isolation maybe would be fine.

Aral_Yaren wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:49 pm 4. Allow defensive mode garrisoned in TC (I despise this idea a lot, but again another brainstorm if other forumers have favor for the point).

This alone would be op imo, if paired with 1 would be VERY op

Aral_Yaren wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:49 pm 5. As I pointed the fragility of fast lower mode ram (it looked like one of F1 cars or one of Tamiya cars I collect from childhood ) and how slow they are (and here also points fragility, mainly in frontline as being easy target), I suggest a new ability gained via tech for them silmaril with elephant run tech: grant more speed in sacrifice of action.

This alone would probably need a slight nerf to their durability alongside it to be in a balanced state, but would probably reduce their usage as "wooden punchbags" and increase their usage as proper siege units, which I think is the best option out of the 5.

I'd say we might make a change for rams:
1. Allow for them to target only buildings
2. With tiers or some tech give them extra actions to attack — it might be not just +1 action but maybe +2
3. Allow for infantry melee units to act from inside

makazuwr32 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:07 am 1. Allow for them to target only buildings

There are some units, that are countered by rams, so I wouldn't make them target only buildings.
In general I disagree with limiting attack targets, unless really required.
If we started with it there is a lot of units, that would be earlier in queue to have limits (e.g. misc units).

2. With tiers or some tech give them extra actions to attack — it might be not just +1 action but maybe +2

Extra actions would completely remove the whole idea behind limited transformations, so I don't like it.

b2198 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:17 pm

Aral_Yaren wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:49 pm There are some strats involving ram (I know little so anyone can show his achievement with ram), current hot pot is defensive ram barrier (spam ram as punchbag in the front while long-ranged unit do the task).

This was what I used to do before the spam nerf, now imo catapults, mantelets, wagons and in some circunstances even ballistas or hwachas (as weak as they are right now) are more viable to dedicate builders to produce, but mainly, if the map has a decent amount of water on it, dedicating builders to make ships is a far better investment of turns in most situations.

makazuwr32 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:07 am 3. Allow for infantry melee units to act from inside

Aral_Yaren wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:49 pm 1. Allow garrison attack from inside (alas only melee, as there's siege tower for ranged unit but who know, or maybe we can talk about siege tower in other thread) .

I might be mistaken here, but I think the only way that would be possible would be to make it so that only melee units can enter it, which... is an interesting idea, since there's already not only siege tower as you said, but also siege mantelet for ranged units and misc., and this would allow counterplay against their counters, by, for example, putting celtic warriors inside to deal with enemy melee anti-siege units.

Allowing melee attacks would require two things:
- decrease of carry cap to 1 (just my opinion on balancing it)
- limiting carry to only melee (as already mentioned)
But it's viable.
It would also increase reward of reaching fortifications, so imo 2. wouldn't be necessary.

Aral_Yaren wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:49 pm 2. Higher tiers have power range to destroy surrounding building faster than othe long-ranged siege unit (or is it already planted in it? I didn't use any ram for long time in MP so need to be confirmed).

Among all these idea I think I like it the most.
It should perfectly align with the concept.
Maybe implemented as target and area weapon effect, that affects only buildings.
Some attack could be then shifted to ability power, that affects this effect (just like anti-mounted units) and achieve higher power without being too good vs non-buildings.

b2198 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:17 pm

Aral_Yaren wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:49 pm 3. Reduce cost from factory, from 5 to 4 turn.

This paired with 1 and/or 2 would make them very op imho, but in isolation maybe would be fine.

Cost could be decreased to 4, but then according to my rules on worker buildable things it would be changed from 10->8 ambidexteria worker actions.

b2198 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:17 pm

Aral_Yaren wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:49 pm 4. Allow defensive mode garrisoned in TC (I despise this idea a lot, but again another brainstorm if other forumers have favor for the point).

This alone would be op imo, if paired with 1 would be VERY op

This idea is completely out.
The whole point of not allowing defensive mode rams in TC was to stop previous annoying (and pretty OP) tactic to make it defend there.
This unit is just too sturdy to let it be TC defender.

b2198 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:17 pm

Aral_Yaren wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:49 pm 5. As I pointed the fragility of fast lower mode ram (it looked like one of F1 cars or one of Tamiya cars I collect from childhood ) and how slow they are (and here also points fragility, mainly in frontline as being easy target), I suggest a new ability gained via tech for them silmaril with elephant run tech: grant more speed in sacrifice of action.

This alone would probably need a slight nerf to their durability alongside it to be in a balanced state, but would probably reduce their usage as "wooden punchbags" and increase their usage as proper siege units, which I think is the best option out of the 5.

Is it really so fragile?
Comparison:
Armored Disarmored
HP: 100 -> 120 -> 140 vs 42 -> 50 -> 60
Armors: 0/16 -> 2/18 -> 4/20 vs 0/2 -> 1/3 -> 2/4

If it's only against fortress/castle on start of the game - 5 shots are required for destruction (4*(6-2) + 4*6 = 40).
On endgame it's much worse, as cannon tower attacks with 50 power, so unupgraded is outright destroyed, 1st is left with 1 hp and even 2nd barely survives with 12 hp.
Maybe some category change would be better here.

But for speed I have long planned to introduce Better Wheels tech, that would increase +1 speed of wagon and packed siege speed.
Not sure if changing it to ability boost is good or not.

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:47 pm Allowing melee attacks would require two things:
- decrease of carry cap to 1 (just my opinion on balancing it)
- limiting carry to only melee (as already mentioned)
But it's viable.
It would also increase reward of reaching fortifications, so imo 2. wouldn't be necessary.

True. Would probably have to exclude throwing units though, so that axe throwers + ram spam doesn't make most other siege weaponry obsolete. Would also be kinda unintuitive to newer players, since I don't think there are any other carriers that only allow melee foot units in the game.

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:47 pm Among all these idea I think I like it the most.
It should perfectly align with the concept.
Maybe implemented as target and area weapon effect, that affects only buildings.
Some attack could be then shifted to ability power, that affects this effect (just like anti-mounted units) and achieve higher power without being too good vs non-buildings.

My only fear with this idea is that they become too strong in early rushes, you start the game producing a ram, send it to enemy base, destroy most if not all their factories in 1-2 turns, and let it die while you develop yourself. But if done right (not giving them too much power early on) would work great, I think.

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:47 pm But for speed I have long planned to introduce Better Wheels tech, that would increase +1 speed of wagon and packed siege speed.
Not sure if changing it to ability boost is good or not.

Actually I think when that is introduced it might fix the ram problems, so maybe it's better to not change them right now, otherwise they might become a bit too strong after that.

And who will spent early builders turn for ram instead of building his base first? Players will develop a new sense to deal with ram - which is not that really very exaggerately hard, just like the case with zerk that thought to be really very exaggerately op, however actually not that so: one just don't think that ram and zerk will never get them, a fatality. Even swordsman can be op if one has nothing to counter them.

And TC is too valuable to train ram early instead of workers and co so probably through siege workshop, and wait 5 turns. And a remembrall that current verslog has dealt with mend rate so even if one commit building ram early, there actually will be slower not only by verslog's lower mend rate but also lack of builders early on.

b2198 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:01 pm

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:47 pm Allowing melee attacks would require two things:
- decrease of carry cap to 1 (just my opinion on balancing it)
- limiting carry to only melee (as already mentioned)
But it's viable.
It would also increase reward of reaching fortifications, so imo 2. wouldn't be necessary.

True. Would probably have to exclude throwing units though, so that axe throwers + ram spam doesn't make most other siege weaponry obsolete. Would also be kinda unintuitive to newer players, since I don't think there are any other carriers that only allow melee foot units in the game.

Yup.
Unfortunately it would be required for balance.

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:47 pm Among all these idea I think I like it the most.
It should perfectly align with the concept.
Maybe implemented as target and area weapon effect, that affects only buildings.
Some attack could be then shifted to ability power, that affects this effect (just like anti-mounted units) and achieve higher power without being too good vs non-buildings.

My only fear with this idea is that they become too strong in early rushes, you start the game producing a ram, send it to enemy base, destroy most if not all their factories in 1-2 turns, and let it die while you develop yourself. But if done right (not giving them too much power early on) would work great, I think.

Why?
My thoughts were to change power 5->7->9 to 4->5->6, while making 1->2->3 ability power based damage on target and 1 tile adjacent, dealt only to buildings - same bonuses.
Such split would actually make it weaker against all other targets, but dealing some slight damage to area. For buildings alone t would be equal to 20%->28.57%%->33.33% on area.

Aral_Yaren wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:26 pm And who will spent early builders turn for ram instead of building his base first? Players will develop a new sense to deal with ram - which is not that really very exaggerately hard, just like the case with zerk that thought to be really very exaggerately op, however actually not that so: one just don't think that ram and zerk will never get them, a fatality. Even swordsman can be op if one has nothing to counter them.

And TC is too valuable to train ram early instead of workers and co so probably through siege workshop, and wait 5 turns. And a remembrall that current verslog has dealt with mend rate so even if one commit building ram early, there actually will be slower not only by verslog's lower mend rate but also lack of builders early on.

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:31 pm Why?
My thoughts were to change power 5->7->9 to 4->5->6, while making 1->2->3 ability power based damage on target and 1 tile adjacent, dealt only to buildings - same bonuses.
Such split would actually make it weaker against all other targets, but dealing some slight damage to area. For buildings alone t would be equal to 20%->28.57%%->33.33% on area.

Ok, that makes sense, for some nonsense reason I thought they would be instadestroying factories in area by turn 5, but with those numbers it would be just 6 damage to secondary building targets early on (right?), and still only 18 when fully upgraded, so it would really only affect significantly attacks against forts and megas (and fortifications in general, to a lesser extent), you can ignore my baseless worries.