Feedback on recent Naval changes
Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:24 am
First and foremost, excellent job on making naval warfare enjoyable again @Endru1241. Until recent changes I had been avoiding water based maps due to spam related boredom. I'm coming to the close of an MP game on Rocky Archipelago, my first water fight in a long time, and found it a much better experience - primarily because all the extra options meant there were multiple viable approaches in any given situation.
Involved in this game were two opponents who I consider to be amongst the very finest currently playing the game, so it was a good testing ground for all that has improved of late. Obviously though, with so many changes there are bound to be a few creases to iron out, so here are my thoughts. (Tentative suggestions will be marked with a ?).
Dromon Scout this is fairly irrelevant atm - for just one extra cost we can have a Barca Longa which has the same speed and sight, along with much better all round combat abilities. Increase sight to 7. Or (tentatively) increase speed to 7, reduce cost to 2, or make constructable?
Barca Longa line really good addition, interesting interplay with it's anti boarding ship capabilities, (specifically the fact it is a viable counter to Galleons) and ability to carry troops. War Caravel seems cool too, but I've not had a chance to properly use this yet.
Galley line the amount of changes and upgrades elsewhere have, by inflation, weakened these slightly even with blacksmith increase to damage... or have they more clearly defined it's role as a shoreline predator Vs land units? Maybe give a small bonus Vs Ships? Or not if that is not their purpose.
War Canoe make trainable in Primitive Hut. Would also be cool if they could carry 1 primitive unit too.
Trireme line seemingly the current ruler of the waves. I feel they need a sizeable decrease to bonus Vs Siege Ships though (currently a Quad can one shot any top tier siege ship).
Fire Ship line now it has an upgrade and is affected by area dam, these little beauties are a wonderful addition to any good admiral's arsenal. Nice work.
Demolition Boat line relatively unusable atm. Too... squishy... (thanks for that word b) to have much of a chance to reach a worthwhile target or to lay sea mines in any useful area. Slight increase to HP even bearing in mind Stronger Hulls tech. Again, not much used by myself, but how about adding fire damage to both suicide attack and the mines they lay - would give their cost a better chance of breaking even, particularly if we invest time in their upgrade.
Turtle Ships wuhoo, nice tanky units when upgraded, but generally not OP due to damage/range limitations. Maybe drop bonus to Siege Ships from 200% to 180% (or less) - the elite version can one shot an Elite Cannon Ship.
Edit - make trainable in Dojo if this is to be the catch-all factory for oriental units.
Ballista Ship line what a fall from grace! From ubiquitous to unused, even though they are the only siege ship to be able to move and attack. (See general points on Siege Ships below). Possibly reduce build cost... maybe to as low as 13?
Catapult Ship line fairly unrealistic to go for the upgrade due to the hefty cost of Heavy Cat - skip these and go straight to cannon ships would probably be more efficient. (In fact, possibly an argument to reduce the cost of the Heavy Cat upgrade in the face of hwacha and cannon - I'm guessing the cost 8 upgrade predates both of those units?)
Cannon Ship line the only siege ship that doesn't require the upgrade of it's landbased equivalent. Possibly bring that requirement in, certainly for Dbl Cannon Ship.
Carrack (as before) rather little bang for your buck for a 10 turn unit. Can it be given a feeble Cannon ability, limited in range and power? I know the upgrade is cheap, but this one seems to need the upgrade to even be usable. As for Galleon, still an absolute beast, but these days must be used more sensibly and in conjunction with other units rather than pumped out en masse with sure knowledge of victory, so again, good changes.
British Firework Ship C'mon now, give us this as a fun unit! Because unlike tanks and uruk hai, this actually looks great fun to use!
Couple of general points...
Siege Ships are obviously in a pretty bad place right now, bordering on unusable. Too easy to destroy, and/or too unwieldy to use, those issues sort of exarcebate each other. What about giving ballista and catapult ships the 40% bonus Vs Anti Ships that Cannon ships have? Is there any way of allowing siege ships to attack and then move, but not move and then attack (ie cut their utility by a third rather than a half relative to previously?) And should the Siege Ship Upgraded Hull tech be giving any armour or HP benefits, because at the moment it seems not to. And I think it ought to, particularly in face of Anti Ship Ship and Castle damage. Which leads to my next point...
Making a beach head this seems to currently be a thankless task of high cost for little gain. In the above mentioned game on Rocky Archipelago, I have recently been the attacker and the defender in this scenario, and the mortality rate is totally unsustainable. This map has little land space, (ie we're only dealing with 2 castles and one or no towers) and also has the benefit of deep water speed boost - other maps have no deep water and much more space for land based defences, making a sea assault somewhere between impossible and suicidal.
I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions to overcome this impasse at the moment, but I feel it is something that needs thinking about. I attacked one opponent with a huge numerical advantage, and it cost nearly the entirety of my western navy to destroy just one of his castles. At the same time, the other surviving opponent pushed against my base with a huge navy while most of my navy was elsewhere, and I saw first hand how easy it was for upgraded defences to soak up the attack and give it back in spades.
Involved in this game were two opponents who I consider to be amongst the very finest currently playing the game, so it was a good testing ground for all that has improved of late. Obviously though, with so many changes there are bound to be a few creases to iron out, so here are my thoughts. (Tentative suggestions will be marked with a ?).
Dromon Scout this is fairly irrelevant atm - for just one extra cost we can have a Barca Longa which has the same speed and sight, along with much better all round combat abilities. Increase sight to 7. Or (tentatively) increase speed to 7, reduce cost to 2, or make constructable?
Barca Longa line really good addition, interesting interplay with it's anti boarding ship capabilities, (specifically the fact it is a viable counter to Galleons) and ability to carry troops. War Caravel seems cool too, but I've not had a chance to properly use this yet.
Galley line the amount of changes and upgrades elsewhere have, by inflation, weakened these slightly even with blacksmith increase to damage... or have they more clearly defined it's role as a shoreline predator Vs land units? Maybe give a small bonus Vs Ships? Or not if that is not their purpose.
War Canoe make trainable in Primitive Hut. Would also be cool if they could carry 1 primitive unit too.
Trireme line seemingly the current ruler of the waves. I feel they need a sizeable decrease to bonus Vs Siege Ships though (currently a Quad can one shot any top tier siege ship).
Fire Ship line now it has an upgrade and is affected by area dam, these little beauties are a wonderful addition to any good admiral's arsenal. Nice work.
Demolition Boat line relatively unusable atm. Too... squishy... (thanks for that word b) to have much of a chance to reach a worthwhile target or to lay sea mines in any useful area. Slight increase to HP even bearing in mind Stronger Hulls tech. Again, not much used by myself, but how about adding fire damage to both suicide attack and the mines they lay - would give their cost a better chance of breaking even, particularly if we invest time in their upgrade.
Turtle Ships wuhoo, nice tanky units when upgraded, but generally not OP due to damage/range limitations. Maybe drop bonus to Siege Ships from 200% to 180% (or less) - the elite version can one shot an Elite Cannon Ship.
Edit - make trainable in Dojo if this is to be the catch-all factory for oriental units.
Ballista Ship line what a fall from grace! From ubiquitous to unused, even though they are the only siege ship to be able to move and attack. (See general points on Siege Ships below). Possibly reduce build cost... maybe to as low as 13?
Catapult Ship line fairly unrealistic to go for the upgrade due to the hefty cost of Heavy Cat - skip these and go straight to cannon ships would probably be more efficient. (In fact, possibly an argument to reduce the cost of the Heavy Cat upgrade in the face of hwacha and cannon - I'm guessing the cost 8 upgrade predates both of those units?)
Cannon Ship line the only siege ship that doesn't require the upgrade of it's landbased equivalent. Possibly bring that requirement in, certainly for Dbl Cannon Ship.
Carrack (as before) rather little bang for your buck for a 10 turn unit. Can it be given a feeble Cannon ability, limited in range and power? I know the upgrade is cheap, but this one seems to need the upgrade to even be usable. As for Galleon, still an absolute beast, but these days must be used more sensibly and in conjunction with other units rather than pumped out en masse with sure knowledge of victory, so again, good changes.
British Firework Ship C'mon now, give us this as a fun unit! Because unlike tanks and uruk hai, this actually looks great fun to use!
Couple of general points...
Siege Ships are obviously in a pretty bad place right now, bordering on unusable. Too easy to destroy, and/or too unwieldy to use, those issues sort of exarcebate each other. What about giving ballista and catapult ships the 40% bonus Vs Anti Ships that Cannon ships have? Is there any way of allowing siege ships to attack and then move, but not move and then attack (ie cut their utility by a third rather than a half relative to previously?) And should the Siege Ship Upgraded Hull tech be giving any armour or HP benefits, because at the moment it seems not to. And I think it ought to, particularly in face of Anti Ship Ship and Castle damage. Which leads to my next point...
Making a beach head this seems to currently be a thankless task of high cost for little gain. In the above mentioned game on Rocky Archipelago, I have recently been the attacker and the defender in this scenario, and the mortality rate is totally unsustainable. This map has little land space, (ie we're only dealing with 2 castles and one or no towers) and also has the benefit of deep water speed boost - other maps have no deep water and much more space for land based defences, making a sea assault somewhere between impossible and suicidal.
I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions to overcome this impasse at the moment, but I feel it is something that needs thinking about. I attacked one opponent with a huge numerical advantage, and it cost nearly the entirety of my western navy to destroy just one of his castles. At the same time, the other surviving opponent pushed against my base with a huge navy while most of my navy was elsewhere, and I saw first hand how easy it was for upgraded defences to soak up the attack and give it back in spades.
). They are actually the second tankiest ship line in the game, behind only the carrack line, and are very versatile too with their cannon shot, making them less prone to dying to assault ships and more useful against defenses.
