Age of Strategy Forums

somehow realted to this (https://www.ageofstrategy.net/viewtopic ... 56&t=12483) topic but here specifically i try to write options i saw in some games i just checked.

gestures/features:
"Mushroom wars" game:
1. you can make a drag on selected single/multiple unit -> you can initiate a "waypoint" or "attack" (eg. with many archers)
2. clicking on an already selected unit can show up some option buttons around it.
maybe the waypoint or attack button for either
- dragging the "button" to a location (to attack or wqaypoint)
- clicking the button that will ask another click to a target waypoint/attack thingie.

"Age of ottoman":
- single click on unit selects (like in android AO* now)
- double click select all similar (like in android AO* now)
- double click on terrain deselects all
- (there is a weird bubble multiselect i dont like to inherit.)

i could not find any other games that manges many units to have multiselect and such - please help me find if you know any game: so goal: have multiple units have multiselct, and you can control multiple units type games (best if the units have multiple abilities not only attack and move but spells and such).





so a possible aligment is this:
------------------------------
- tap unit: select unit
- double tap unit: select similar units (question how? as we have too many unit types that are similar - i would select all archer types when they are double tapped - shall we use the "category" that is used in the mapeditor (ranged, melee, mounted and such)
- triple tap unit?
- tap on terrain: deselect all
- one unit selected, drag "unit": will start multiselect box
- multiple units selected, drag unit: will start again multiselect box to "add" new units to selection
[this one is wrong idea]- click on a selected/multiselected unit (means clicking 1 sec later than first click - so not double click):
will show "auto attack" + "waypoint" floater buttons, those buttons
a) can be dragged to target location on finished dragging on the location floating buttons appear (ok/cancel)
b) can be clicked and a mesage shows to click a target location - on the location floating buttons appear (ok/cancel)

what do u think any other ideas?
i was about to make it - but i decided to run a query first if u ahve better idea, or u seen better solutions and some game (if so which game?)

i just realized re-clicking a selected unit (when alone selected) may not work because:
- we have workers already showing construction icons around them
- we have units that can mend themselves (eg. a mending ship / caravel) that will not let you click again as the mending sign appears on them (in case of caravel it is already a problem: i can not open the ship for emberked units if it has action as it will mend the ship unintentionally)

so maybe we can not do this? or we should remove the "mend" automatism things (double click, and auto mending icon on constructibe/damages mendables) and move it to be a normal "ability" usage?

also in multiseelcted more we should not lose the unseelct single unit option. so this line can not be made this way:
click on a selected/multiselected unit (means clicking 1 sec later than first click - so not double click)

Stratego (dev) wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:45 am i just realized re-clicking a selected unit (when alone selected) may not work because:
- we have workers already showing construction icons around them
- we have units that can mend themselves (eg. a mending ship / caravel) that will not let you click again as the mending sign appears on them (in case of caravel it is already a problem: i can not open the ship for emberked units if it has action as it will mend the ship unintentionally)

so maybe we can not do this? or we should remove the "mend" automatism things (double click, and auto mending icon on constructibe/damages mendables) and move it to be a normal "ability" usage?

Not sure if others agree with me, but I think making construction function like other abilities would be more intuitive for new players, and would just add a bit of finger movement per action (without increasing number of taps). As for the mend case, it would indeed double the amount of taps required, but maybe if the abillity had some spec that makes it become selected on selecting the unit (and unselected when clicking on the ability icon "again") it probably could work aswell.

Just a suggestion

• Single click: select a unit (shows hud)
  
  • For movement
    
  • For attack (if damagable units in range)
    
• Double Click: expand options(on click, expand further if available)
  • Default Actions (like build, heal,mend, convert)
    
  • Transforms (unit1, unit 2, unit 3)
    
  • Stand down
  • Abilities
    
• Triple click:
  • waypoint
  • stats
  • cancel production(if factory)
• Long press:
  • select similar units
    • Way points
• select and drag:
  • select multiple units
    • waypoints

longpress/select and drag: here how you imagined the waypoint to reach? it appears automatically after drag or after longpress?

double click: i like the double click ideas! also the images you made! thanks!
my only consern is the carrier units that can also have some other abilities, so currently we use double click for entering a carrier, do u have idea for this problem?
also i would keep the current ability line, so we have more space among the popped up buttons for eg. a waypoint button.

triple click: i think waypoint could go to the double click popup, and all others have already a button in the hud or int the producing unit "internal" view. so we can left triple click unused or to use for something else.

b2198 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:27 am

Stratego (dev) wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:45 am i just realized re-clicking a selected unit (when alone selected) may not work because:
- we have workers already showing construction icons around them
- we have units that can mend themselves (eg. a mending ship / caravel) that will not let you click again as the mending sign appears on them (in case of caravel it is already a problem: i can not open the ship for emberked units if it has action as it will mend the ship unintentionally)

so maybe we can not do this? or we should remove the "mend" automatism things (double click, and auto mending icon on constructibe/damages mendables) and move it to be a normal "ability" usage?

Not sure if others agree with me, but I think making construction function like other abilities would be more intuitive for new players, and would just add a bit of finger movement per action (without increasing number of taps). As for the mend case, it would indeed double the amount of taps required, but maybe if the abillity had some spec that makes it become selected on selecting the unit (and unselected when clicking on the ability icon "again") it probably could work aswell.

so you say move it to be like an ability button?
so in case of a only mender only 1 a hammer ability would appear by default.
and in case of a constructor-mender 2 buttons: hammer + construction icon would appear as extra ability buttons
right?

OR if we use the above idea: they (these new ability buttons) can move only into the popped up buttons around the unit - maybe easier to reach to tap on. but they are abilities after all so maybe in abilities line they are more intuitive.

Stratego (dev) wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:18 am

b2198 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:27 am Not sure if others agree with me, but I think making construction function like other abilities would be more intuitive for new players, and would just add a bit of finger movement per action (without increasing number of taps). As for the mend case, it would indeed double the amount of taps required, but maybe if the abillity had some spec that makes it become selected on selecting the unit (and unselected when clicking on the ability icon "again") it probably could work aswell.

so you say move it to be like an ability button?
so in case of a only mender only 1 a hammer ability would appear by default.
and in case of a constructor-mender 2 buttons: hammer + construction icon would appear as extra ability buttons
right?

OR if we use the above idea: they (these new ability buttons) can move only into the popped up buttons around the unit - maybe easier to reach to tap on. but they are abilities after all so maybe in abilities line they are more intuitive.

Yeah, like ability buttons, but with for the mend case with an added bonus of being selected by default when tapping the unit (sot that it doesn't require another tap to use, but you can tap on the mend ability button to deselect and do other stuff with the unit) (and maybe working with a spec so that other abilities could behave like that too, like hwacha's "hwacha barrage", for example)

I also like a lot hyu's idea of a menu around the unit when it is selected, and I think that would also reduce the finger/mouse movement required to do more specific stuff with your units (like using abilities).

Stratego (dev) wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:16 am double click: i like the double click ideas! also the images you made! thanks!
my only consern is the carrier units that can also have some other abilities, so currently we use double click for entering a carrier, do u have idea for this problem?
also i would keep the current ability line, so we have more space among the popped up buttons for eg. a waypoint button.

Stratego (dev) wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:16 am triple click: i think waypoint could go to the double click popup, and all others have already a button in the hud or int the producing unit "internal" view. so we can left triple click unused or to use for something else.

For this, i got 2 ideas,
1) assigning long click for carrier view, and triple click for similar unit selection
2) keeping the same as i described here

Hyuhjhih wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:39 am Just a suggestion
Single click: select a unit (shows hud)
For movement ..
......
.....

Adding an entry icon like (*image being used in AoC for another purpose) for carrier view( placed among the double click options or perhaps separately in the hud of carriers).

Stratego (dev) wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:16 am longpress/select and drag: here how you imagined the waypoint to reach? it appears automatically after drag or after longpress?

Since there aren't any other functions assigned to these actions, I could suggest an on-click-release event where a floating waypoint flag appears after drag or longpress(*or the triple click instead as I suggested above) which could be placed on target tile and confirmed later.

little modified with longlick using for the extra options.
also excluding maybe not needed ones from quick menu.

• Single click: select a unit (shows hud)
  • For movement
    
  • For attack (if damagable units in range)
    
• longclick on already selected unit(or on already selected multiple units!): expand options(on click, expand further if available)
  (by longclick i mean you start tapping the unit and the buttons start to spread around (eg. from center to a wider circle) and if you wait enough (eg. 0.3 sec) to all buttons reach position they remain there to be pressed if you stop pressing before than they vanish again
  
  • Waypoint
  • Attack (in multieselect case using the deafult attack - useful for ranged units eg. many archers selected)
  • Stand down
  • Open carrier in carrier case
• Double click or Second click on already selected unit (meaning fast click so shorter than the above mentioned 0.3 sec):
  maybe current opening up carrier ? in normal units does nothing?
• select and drag:
  multiselect box (as now on android)
  + if multiple units selected: same dragging will again draw a rectangle to ADD more units to selection.
  
  
  ---------
  what do u think?

i have updated my most a little.

i just realized we are only moving already existing buttons (on single click on current android version) around the unit instead of
a) the current "top of screen" buttons eg. kill unit, stand ground unit, unit statsheet and waypoint buttons)
b) ability buttons from bottom right

so we are not making too much change, these can be in same place as currently(on top of the screen, in ability line)
or is this that change (to put around the unit) worth it?

i think the the current multiselction on android is more awkward than these buttons - or not?

so what i think we could focus on are:
1. multiselecting how to as current a little awkward(?) (maybe will change other things if they "collide")
-> multiselect idea1: making an area on screen right above menu button and right below the zoom buttons, and if you press that with left hand that "locks" the screen so with right hand you can draw a rectangle for multiselect?
2. target tile getting: eg. waypoint (or any other input - mapeditor tile/unit place, environmentals spell taragets) how to set? (current: by button press - "waiting" for tapping target tile - and clicking on target tile like on android now) or some other way?
-> target tile idea1: after activating the feature (waypoint/environmental ability/mapeditor placing a unit) a message on top or bottom says click a tile, if clicked a big ARROW appears down pointing down with "green" and you can still drag it (dragging will auto scroll screen too so you can go farther) or accept it by clicking on it.
-> target tile idea2: after activating the feature (waypoint/environmental ability/mapeditor placing a unit) a message on top or bottom says click a tile, if clicked the thing is targeted there - so without confirmation (like current waypoint mode in android)
3. maybe the existing problem: The how-to-enter-carrier-if-that-is-also-a-mender(and injured)
4. maybe the existing problem: you can not occupy a building if that is also attackable by unit (as target sign is on it so not walkable)

After some thoughts my personal idea:
1. Multiselect — should be activated from a long click on unit (going into carrier or activating some abilities like construction or converting will be via double click on unit)
2. Still thinking.
3. In aof it is not a problem since we do not have carriers menders. Or otherwise just restricting to mend itself. But in general it might be problematic so better to think how to solve it.
4. Can confirm that it is a problem — ruined fortress or capturable flag you probably will damage at least once via ranged unit before you capture it with them.

thankS!

others? ideas?

Stratego (dev) wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:50 pm 1. multiselecting how to as current a little awkward(?) (maybe will change other things if they "collide")
-> multiselect idea1: making an area on screen right above menu button and right below the zoom buttons, and if you press that with left hand that "locks" the screen so with right hand you can draw a rectangle for multiselect?

So basically just one or more areas that act as "lock screen" button, that works only while pressed ?
It could also be made somewhere close to original click, that started dragging (like when dragging to right-down make it on left top of original click). It just needs to have some icon or color shown.
There is problem with another multi-select (already mentioned) - the one after double click and I think the solution will be mentioned in my answer for 3/4.

2. target tile getting: eg. waypoint (or any other input - mapeditor tile/unit place, environmentals spell taragets) how to set? (current: by button press - "waiting" for tapping target tile - and clicking on target tile like on android now) or some other way?
-> target tile idea1: after activating the feature (waypoint/environmental ability/mapeditor placing a unit) a message on top or bottom says click a tile, if clicked a big ARROW appears down pointing down with "green" and you can still drag it (dragging will auto scroll screen too so you can go farther) or accept it by clicking on it.
-> target tile idea2: after activating the feature (waypoint/environmental ability/mapeditor placing a unit) a message on top or bottom says click a tile, if clicked the thing is targeted there - so without confirmation (like current waypoint mode in android)

Additional confirmation could be made selectable in options, but turned on by default.

3. maybe the existing problem: The how-to-enter-carrier-if-that-is-also-a-mender(and injured)

You meant when unit trying to enter carrier is mender and carrier is mendable and damaged, right?

makazuwr32 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:01 am 3. In aof it is not a problem since we do not have carriers menders. Or otherwise just restricting to mend itself. But in general it might be problematic so better to think how to solve it.

So this was probably misunderstood.

4. maybe the existing problem: you can not occupy a building if that is also attackable by unit (as target sign is on it so not walkable)

Imho - the solution to both points is to actually remake mend and attack as ability.
Other problems could be solved by it too.

We have this weird notion of default actions being something inherently different from abilities, but are they?
Convert, transform and heal are already effects.
If we make it so, that any ability/spell/action means exactly the same in the engine a lot of weird interface actions could be made to work a lot more logically.
Additionally it became apparent for me after more hybrid units were made into various Ao games, that there is a need for 2nd attack, different mend action and so on.
Making them all unified as effects could solve it as a bonus.
So:
- making mend into effect:
a) effect spec to multiply power by mendRate
b) effect spec to make basic range=rangeMend
c) effect spec to make applied effect multiplied by target bonusMending/bonusMendingWhenConstructing (if not finished)
d) effect spec to make it impossible to be casted from carrier even if unit casting doesn't have spec CAN_NOT_ATTACK_WHEN_GARRISONED
e) system special mend, which would be used for AI (just like mend action was used), target unit specs (e.g. IS_BUILD_IMMEDIATE), caster unit specs (e.g. NO_CONSTRUCT) and targetting
- making start construction into effect:
a) system special start construction needed for AI and targetting
- making attack into effect:
a) effect spec to provoke counter (unless used by unit with specs, that ignores that)
a) system special attack, which similarly would be used for AI, target unit specs, caster unit specs and targetting
- correction for healing:
a) effect spec to multiply power by healRate
b) effect spec to make basic range =rangeHeal (not sure if still needed)
c) effect spec to make applied effect multiplied by target bonusHealing
d) removing all three above from system special behaviour, only leaving it to be used for AI and specs
Then the thing needed would be to make it easier to be used by players, so some sort of way determining which one of those actions should be default (used without the need to click on button) e.g. smallint value for in-game units representing index of last used action/spell/attack as default action and one of buttons representing something like "no action" to make e.g. going into carriers possible. Of course not all effects could ever be default - I cannot imagine those with tile targetting ever be default, as clicking on effect is easier (no matter if buttons are on bottom or selectable from around the unit).
For easiest solution only "no action" would be needed.

"multiselect idea1:"

"So basically just one or more areas that act as "lock screen" button, that works only while pressed ?"

yes the area is like a normal lock button but
- little transparent
- and locks ONLY while pressed (so not a switch like button)
(like pressing a "CTRL" button on PC)

"It could also be made somewhere close to original click"

wait there is no "original click" on any unit
the point here to be able to drag a multiselext-box without any original click.
(like on PC you press CRTL and press LMB (starts draw box instnatly ) and by dragging box increases.

There is problem with another multi-select (already mentioned) - the one after double click and I think the solution will be mentioned in my answer for 3/4.

i think you misunderstand using the "CTRL" button you can make many multiselect and add up all units to the selected units list.
or i misunderstand you


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
existing problems(1 and 2):
I know, but i dont want to restructure everything - would be about 4-5 days on android, and several on unity too (many features are already there)
however i can easily "emulate it"
so as end result non ability ones (attack, mend) will appear instantly
eg.
1. on unit click you see only movement tiles
2. on ability line you can press a new button wiht attack sign, this case all movement vanished but u see all default attack possibilities.
3. on ability line you can a mend too to see nothing else but mendable (adjacent) units with hammer on them.
so "visually" it will be like an ability.

question is : is this the best way to?
as in MOST MOST MOOOOOST cases the current way (movement+mend+attack) showing is very good and handy so without any extra clicks you can do everything about these basic things move, attack, mend.
and only MINIMAL cases it casues this 2 above mentioned problems.

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:36 pm Imho - the solution to both points is to actually remake mend and attack as ability.
Other problems could be solved by it too.

We have this weird notion of default actions being something inherently different from abilities, but are they?
Convert, transform and heal are already effects.
If we make it so, that any ability/spell/action means exactly the same in the engine a lot of weird interface actions could be made to work a lot more logically.
Additionally it became apparent for me after more hybrid units were made into various Ao games, that there is a need for 2nd attack, different mend action and so on.
Making them all unified as effects could solve it as a bonus.
So:
- making mend into effect:
a) effect spec to multiply power by mendRate
b) effect spec to make basic range=rangeMend
c) effect spec to make applied effect multiplied by target bonusMending/bonusMendingWhenConstructing (if not finished)
d) effect spec to make it impossible to be casted from carrier even if unit casting doesn't have spec CAN_NOT_ATTACK_WHEN_GARRISONED
e) system special mend, which would be used for AI (just like mend action was used), target unit specs (e.g. IS_BUILD_IMMEDIATE), caster unit specs (e.g. NO_CONSTRUCT) and targetting
- making start construction into effect:
a) system special start construction needed for AI and targetting
- making attack into effect:
a) effect spec to provoke counter (unless used by unit with specs, that ignores that)
a) system special attack, which similarly would be used for AI, target unit specs, caster unit specs and targetting
- correction for healing:
a) effect spec to multiply power by healRate
b) effect spec to make basic range =rangeHeal (not sure if still needed)
c) effect spec to make applied effect multiplied by target bonusHealing
d) removing all three above from system special behaviour, only leaving it to be used for AI and specs
Then the thing needed would be to make it easier to be used by players, so some sort of way determining which one of those actions should be default (used without the need to click on button) e.g. smallint value for in-game units representing index of last used action/spell/attack as default action and one of buttons representing something like "no action" to make e.g. going into carriers possible. Of course not all effects could ever be default - I cannot imagine those with tile targetting ever be default, as clicking on effect is easier (no matter if buttons are on bottom or selectable from around the unit).
For easiest solution only "no action" would be needed.

I agree. This would solve a lot of UI (and game mechanics) issues.

Stratego (dev) wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:44 pm existing problems(1 and 2):
I know, but i dont want to restructure everything - would be about 4-5 days on android, and several on unity too (many features are already there)
however i can easily "emulate it"
so as end result non ability ones (attack, mend) will appear instantly
eg.
1. on unit click you see only movement tiles
2. on ability line you can press a new button wiht attack sign, this case all movement vanished but u see all default attack possibilities.
3. on ability line you can a mend too to see nothing else but mendable (adjacent) units with hammer on them.
so "visually" it will be like an ability.

question is : is this the best way to?
as in MOST MOST MOOOOOST cases the current way (movement+mend+attack) showing is very good and handy so without any extra clicks you can do everything about these basic things move, attack, mend.
and only MINIMAL cases it casues this 2 above mentioned problems.

That's the part where having some abilities selected by default (defined in each unit, probably) could be useful, so that the same amount of taps/click are required as in the current system for all situations but the ones that the current one doesn't allow, which would require another tap/click on the ability to de-select it and show only movement.

i have new idea for cases where there are multiple options:
the appearing icon on unit would be hammer, but when you click on it (eg. on an damaged carrier that can mend itself too like caravel) it will not mend it but pops up 2 buttons to confirm which action you want: "Mend" and "enter into carrier"

so you will not accidentally mend it when u wanted to go inside instead.

same for other case: when you want to occupy a building but the attacks sign is on it, you press attack sign and 2 buttons come up: "attack" and "occupy" to choose from

isnt that better?

that case everything can reamin as is it s currently except the popping up selection buttons in case of the (rare) multioption case.

That could also work, and would be way simpler to do, so I think that solution is indeed better for this topic. Though I'd still consider the other option (or some variation of it) for later because it adds more flexibility to the way these actions interact with the UI and with the game logic.

Ok. But the main topic were these:

multiselecting how to as current a little awkward(?) (maybe will change other things if they "collide")
-> multiselect idea1: making an area on screen right above menu button and right below the zoom buttons, and if you press that with left hand that "locks" the screen so with right hand you can draw a rectangle for multiselect?
2. target tile getting: eg. waypoint (or any other input - mapeditor tile/unit place, environmentals spell taragets) how to set? (current: by button press - "waiting" for tapping target tile - and clicking on target tile like on android now) or some other way?
-> target tile idea1: after activating the feature (waypoint/environmental ability/mapeditor placing a unit) a message on top or bottom says click a tile, if clicked a big ARROW appears down pointing down with "green" and you can still drag it (dragging will auto scroll screen too so you can go farther) or accept it by clicking on it.
-> target tile idea2: after activating the feature (waypoint/environmental ability/mapeditor placing a unit) a message on top or bottom says click a tile, if clicked the thing is targeted there - so without confirmation (like current waypoint mode in android)

-> multiselect idea1: making an area on screen right above menu button and right below the zoom buttons, and if you press that with left hand that "locks" the screen so with right hand you can draw a rectangle for multiselect?

i am now having a solution now with a new button to turn on and off multiselect mode
- on phones: this button can be later changed to be an "active only while touched" like button so with one thumb you activate multiselect and other fingers can draw boxes.
- on PC: the CTRL or SHIFT button can activate inactivate multiselect feature (only while pressed), and maybe that new multiselct button does not even appear on PC, and only SHIFT/CTRL is used.

and if multiselect is active the background is locked and only a box being drawn to multiselect your units.

Sounds good for me.