Age of Strategy Forums

This thread was scrapped by the author (me) who was convinced otherwise. Could someone delete this thread?


The Peugeot 202 already does and the BA-64 literally in its flavour description says it takes cities.

I propose all Armoured Cars to be able to take towns. If Jeeps from the Jeeps Towing/Transportation thread are now able to take towns, it might be better to let Armoured Cars take towns as well.

If the Anti tank rifleman upgrades thread is implemented, it would balance these ideas out. Anti tank rifleman changes would increase Anti tank rifleman effective against vehicles, at the same time that vehicles are a bit more useful.

If jeeps were to be produced according to timeline, several nations would not have access to starter jeep at the start of the game.

Hence.

Proposed New Starter Units replacement for Jeeps following Industry 1 Timeline

Average stats of starter industry 1 Armoured Cars.
6-8 health
2-3 damage
6-7 speed.
Can take towns.


USA:
T7 Armored Car (Sprite needed)


British:
Guy armoured car (Sprite Needed)


German:
SdKfz 222 (In game already)

Remarks: SdKfz 222 needs a -16 hp nerf.

Russia:
FAI armoured car (Sprite required)


Italian:
Lancia 1ZM (Sprite Needed)


France:
Peugeot 202 (Already in with town capture ability)


Japan:
Kurogane Type 95 (Sprite needed)

As Ive said before in discord
Im against this but you only really need to convince Stratego and Jason and this idea is good to go.

DreJaDe wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 3:29 am As Ive said before in discord
Im against this but you only really need to convince Stratego and Jason and this idea is good to go.

I took your stance into consideration. I would love if you could help break down further what parts you disagree with exactly and how we can comprise. For example, I know you didn't like that infantry became less important in town capturing. Note that all the proposed 1st industry armoured cars are very low in health, around 6-8 hp.

By industry two players would have the industrial base to "counter" armoured cars. As for the current stats of armoured cars, some are a bit problematic.

Industry 1 Armoured Cars
SdKfz 222
26-> 8
5 attack

Panhard 178
16hp
8 attack
Cost 2->3 turns

Industry 2 Armoured Cars
SdKFZ 234 Puma
19->16 hp
18-> 8 attack.
Cost 4 -> 3

Autoblindo AB40
18hp-> 17 hp
4->6 attack

Ba-11
16hp
16-> 7 attack (Bonus to vehicle light)
Cost 4->3
Speed 7->5


Humber Armoured Car
14 ->15hp
4 -> 7 attack

Industry 3 armoured cars;

M8 greyhound
30->24 hp
16->9 attack
Cost 2-> 3 turns

SD KFZ234 40
20->23hp
30-> 12 attack (PAk40 gun, technically 17 damage because Pak40 AT is in game unit but I think we should reconsider lowering the base damage of at guns across the board)
Cost 4->3 turns


Remarks:
- Industry 1 anti tank rifleman should 1 hit weak industry 1 armoured cars. Exceptions for french Panhard 178.
- Industry 2, armoured cars should not be 1 hitted by normal anti tank rifleman. 2 attacks from a normal anti tank rifleman would kill an 2nd industry armoured car.
- Anti tank rifleman upgraded would have enough damage to 1 hit a industry 2 armoured car. But not enough to 1 hit a industry 3 armoured car.
- 2nd industry Armoured cars damage bonuses should not 1 tap normal infantry, it should almost 1 tap infantry e.g. about 20-25 damage.

I do not like the idea of putting the role of infantry as the main tc taker to armored cars. For me, armored cars are part of the cavalry arm.

They are also good at scouting...

Jeeps have never been a problem cause taking them out is super easy and they don't deal much damage yet still cost high 3 turns.

For me jeeps are like convincing neutral tc to join them in early or infantry putting control.

Armored cars only assist infantry but doesn't really take towns on their own. They do not do this. Armored cars are not used to take towns. They assist infantry from doing so.

Its always infantry who does this.

Also dont like that their cost is same as tanks. Yes, I do not like the idea of 4 turn armored cars like the german one but thats basically what Jason is asking for with those stats that 1 taps infantry and have 2 turns..

Hp and damage is calculated so changing them is hard. I think you already should have been quite aware of this.

When it comes to balancing armored cars though...

Those with 2 turn attack and have larger than 10 damage should only have 100% bonus to infantry and noncombat vehicle.

DreJaDe wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 5:52 am I do not like the idea of putting the role of infantry as the main tc taker to armored cars. For me, armored cars are part of the cavalry arm.

They are also good at scouting...

I assure you that the main role of infantry will not be taken away by armoured cars. Infantry will always have a significant role in game, armoured cars will not change that.

Give me a case example of what you don't like. "Cavalry arm" to me means AoS calvalry role. And calvary in Aos can capture towns. I see no conflict.

DreJaDe wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 5:52 am Jeeps have never been a problem cause taking them out is super easy and they don't deal much damage yet still cost high 3 turns.

Industry 1 armoured cars are weak (6-8 hp), will not cause problems in industry 1. Will speed up capture game, early skirmish but infantry remain as main force.

DreJaDe wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 5:52 am For me jeeps are like convincing neutral tc to join them in early or infantry putting control.

Armored cars only assist infantry but doesn't really take towns on their own. They do not do this. Armored cars are not used to take towns. They assist infantry from doing so.

Its always infantry who does this

True, but we can take liberty in game. Please note that vehicles taking towns isn't new ingame. Jeeps, General Rommel and his counterparts, French armoured car Peugeot 202.

The game has established that vehicles like Jeeps can take towns. Perhaps you justified it as "infantry inside jeep" hence town could be taken.

It is true that armoured car's role wasn't to capture towns in real life. But is not too much of a stretch in regards to the AoWw game world, where nations spawn on a single town surrounded by neutral towns.

DreJaDe wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 5:52 am Also dont like that their cost is same as tanks. Yes, I do not like the idea of 4 turn armored cars like the german one but thats basically what Jason is asking for with those stats that 1 taps infantry and have 2 turns..

You are agreeing with me that armoured cars should be 3 turns and take Jason bluffed them too much? Thanks, I would like more confirmation on parts of my ideas that you agree with.

DreJaDe wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 5:52 am Hp and damage is calculated so changing them is hard. I think you already should have been quite aware of this.

When it comes to balancing armored cars though...

I would like you to specific me the metric by which the values for armoured cars were used. I don't see how Puma and M8 greyhound especially could have so much attack and health.

DreJaDe wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 5:52 am Those with 2 turn attack and have larger than 10 damage should only have 100% bonus to infantry and noncombat vehicle.

No complaint.


Final Remarks

Do you have any thought on my proposed "balancing" of Anti tank Rifleman (ATR) vs ACar?

Tier 1 ATR > Tier 1 ACar.
Tier 1 ATR < Tier 2 ACar.
Tier 2 ATR > Tier 2 ACar.
Tier 2 ATR < Tier 3 ACar.

Where ATR > ACar means ATR 1 hits the ACar. Where ATR < ACar doesn't 1 hit the ACar.

TntAttack wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:02 am I assure you that the main role of infantry will not be taken away by armoured cars. Infantry will always have a significant role in game, armoured cars will not change that.

No one questions this. My statement is clear. Armoured car will take the role of infantry as main tc taker.

If 1 (3 turn) armoured car can take tc and 1 tap 2 infantry with 6-7 speed and have 6-7 sight and requires special units that is somewhat bad against any other type. Why would I use infantry that cost 2 turns and needs 3 turn truck that only have 5 speed?

TntAttack wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:02 am And calvary in Aos can capture towns. I see no conflict.

Nothing in AOS 1 tap 2 infantry in 1 turn. And defense is somewhat different in AOS... Too many reason that knights are quite fine... I already forgot but tanks before can take tc but they removed it.

TntAttack wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:02 am Industry 1 armoured cars are weak (6-8 hp), will not cause problems in industry 1. Will speed up capture game, early skirmish but infantry remain as main force

What about the ind 2 and 3 where they are quite powerful? What about the italian ones in first industry? Again... Easy tc taking will be about spamming armored cars.

Not that the game has slow tc taking and 10hp of those units is a problem on their own.

TntAttack wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:02 am True, but we can take liberty in game.

Hence what we did... You did, and disagreeing with the interpretation is also part of that.

TntAttack wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:02 am You are agreeing with me that armoured cars should be 3 turns and take Jason bluffed them too much?

Im okay with them having lesser cost than tanks all to more when they are weaker than tanks but they shouldn't be powerful enough to 1 tap 2 infantry given their other stats.

TntAttack wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:02 am I would like you to specific me the metric by which the values for armoured cars were used. I don't see how Puma and M8 greyhound especially could have so much attack and health.

Im not sure anymore but for attack is a mix of calibre of the gun and such.

Turn of attack depends of rpm, if its MG or canons or auto canons.

HP is based on weight.

Ask stratego.

DreJaDe wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:55 am

TntAttack wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:02 am I assure you that the main role of infantry will not be taken away by armoured cars. Infantry will always have a significant role in game, armoured cars will not change that.

No one questions this. My statement is clear. Armoured car will take the role of infantry as main tc taker.

If 1 (3 turn) armoured car can take tc and 1 tap 2 infantry with 6-7 speed and have 6-7 sight and requires special units that is somewhat bad against any other type. Why would I use infantry that cost 2 turns and needs 3 turn truck that only have 5 speed?

TntAttack wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:02 am Industry 1 armoured cars are weak (6-8 hp), will not cause problems in industry 1. Will speed up capture game, early skirmish but infantry remain as main force

What about the ind 2 and 3 where they are quite powerful? What about the italian ones in first industry? Again... Easy tc taking will be about spamming armored cars.

Not that the game has slow tc taking and 10hp of those units is a problem on their own.

Im okay with them having lesser cost than tanks all to more when they are weaker than tanks but they shouldn't be powerful enough to 1 tap 2 infantry given their other stats.

Regarding Armoured one 1 tapping 2 infantry
Drejade are you suggestion we nerf the high infantry bonuses on Armoured Cars?

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Armoured Cars should not 1 hit infantry except for engineers and scouts.

What is the highest damage an armoured should do to infantry?

Regarding Italian First industry Armoured Car
The Italian AutoBlindo AB80 was in service on 1941. I was wrong on discord about this Italian unit, it's actually industry 2.

The first industry Italian armoured car would be the Lancia 1ZM (see original post above where I suggested all first industry Armoured cars)

Regarding the cost effectiveness of Anti tank Rifleman Counters

I think mere threat of enemy armoured cars would compel players to use more anti tank counters like tanks, bombers, smgs, concrete artillery etc.

But anti tank rifleman would remain the most cheapest solution. The weakness of anti tank rifleman is that they are poor against medium tanks and vulnerable to almost everything that has bonuses against infantry.

ATR against infantry it isn't an issue. That is not within the scope capacity of ATR. ATR against medium tanks the role of ATR is stretched beyond its capability. The true role of ATR I am proposing is against vehicles.

Stats rebalancing

Drejade if I propose an appropriate rebalancing for all armoured cars such that they are not healthy, not too offensive in damage, not too fast in speed and not expensive as tanks...

Will you objectively agree with armoured cars taking towns?