Age of Strategy Forums

Bard is 3 cost unit that make some other do double atk with increased damage (worth 3 blacksmith guy).
Considering the economic of cost/time. This basically double (not considering the damage buff) the value of the buffed one. With his 2 action/turn for movement speed buff and now talking about +3 pure damage from atk buff (considering the damage calculation) tripling or quadrupling the value of the buffed one is starting line there thanks to all the ability of bard

Let me compared it to herbalist, herbalist can also double atk but not increase power, the buff last 2 turn but only affect melee, and she only has 1 action/turn. Herbalist also has other stuff like healling and buffing the power of ranged, but considering his 1 action/ turn it is kinda limited argument. But the most important thing- --> Herbalist has 5 cost, bard has 3.

Considering that essay, my idea for nerf is:
- Increasing his cost to 6

Or two of these:
- cost +1 (for 4)
- remove + 3 power
- only 1 action / turn
- remove double atk from his atk buff, but increase the power +5 (need some more adjusment)

Thank you for the consideration

I'd prefer to make him cost 4 OR only has 1 action. I'd say increasing bard's cost to 6 is just ridiculous. I agree about bard being overpowered and all but I disagree having such a huge nerf on him. Cost 4 or only has a single action is my suggestions.

Not only bard but a 2 herbalist can give double amonst them and with several of em , i usually made a chain of healing herbalist from a good range.

• Bard cost could be 5 in my opinion, or trainable at only TC , than nordic hall.

• or limit number of bards per TC , since several songs played together at close proximity could be annoying to armies.

• Bard ability range can be decreased.

• or active battle song can inhibit blacksmith upgrades effect.

• a similar approach can be done to inhibit drum with adventure song. But not necessary.

6 turns is too great of a change.
Even if a unit seems to be OP I prefer to nerf it in smaller steps to not miss the balance point.

What I can do is e.g. limit battle song for melee foot and cavalry.

Hyuhjhih wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:51 pm

• or limit number of bards per TC , since several songs played together at close proximity could be annoying to armies.

• or active battle song can inhibit blacksmith upgrades effect.

• a similar approach can be done to inhibit drum with adventure song. But not necessary.

Btw. All those are impossible in the current engine.

Hyuhjhih wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:51 pm Bard cost could be 5 in my opinion, or trainable at only TC, than nordic hall.

What about this.

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:35 pm

Hyuhjhih wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:51 pm

• or limit number of bards per TC , since several songs played together at close proximity could be annoying to armies.

• or active battle song can inhibit blacksmith upgrades effect.

• a similar approach can be done to inhibit drum with adventure song. But not necessary.

Btw. All those are impossible in the current engine.

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:31 pm 6 turns is too great of a change.
Even if a unit seems to be OP I prefer to nerf it in smaller steps to not miss the balance point.

What I can do is e.g. limit battle song for melee foot and cavalry.

I agree, this dude in aos chat was always saying "bard is very op, increase cost to 6" etc.

Battle song to melee foot and cavalry only? Sounds sad. Snowy campaign needs bards to win some maps, hero axe thrower will be less effective in it. May result in impossible to beat maps. If you even consider doing this, can you make an exception of Axe Thrower? He is melee with a ranged attack afterall.

Axe thrower has light foot melee category.

Isn't the whole point of a strategy game to fight against your challenges, rather than ask them to be changed...?

This is a Nordic only unit. Either your opponent has chosen to go Nordic in a few TCs game, (in which case, he deserves the benefits of an otherwise expensive factory choice) or there are enough TCs in the match to play your own game without worrying too much about one individual enemy unit.

Bard is not a game-breaker!....It is either an integral part of a minimalist strategy, or merely an extra attack in a large army. Yes, I believe it should be increased to 4 turn cost in current form, because it is a very useful unit, but apart from that, leave as is.

Endru1241 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:31 pm
What I can do is e.g. limit battle song for melee foot and cavalry.

That being said, this is a very good idea - the performamce of melee units would be much more effected by morale in real life than missile

I never thought about affecting melee nerf. Thats a good option, (edit: i dislike it after further consideration) My main problem at this state is fully upgraded longbowman + bard is not funny, like. Really, not funny.
I also dislike that you all underrate / not address extra +3 power from the buff. it is basically +6 of pure damage, worth one more atk in my opinion, especially since it also affect damage bonus.
That being said, if you prefer to stepdown instead to nerfhammer, any change is welcome.
This will not nerf the bard + berserker + wagon combo but since it is nordic exclusive. I also consider to not be nerfed severely. But please consider it.

The reason for 6 cost as a baseline is because of this unit is way superior than herbalist on buffing (as i said almost tripling the atk value and lingering movement buff) vs double the value of atk for ONLY melee unit within SINGLE turn.
i will not drift this thread into buffing herbalist. But considering her, even 6 cost will make this unit still playable since he is the only range buffer.

Sorry for double post, please delete

What do you mean for a single turn?? Herbalist action buff lasts for 2 turns. The only downside is it doesn't affect ranged. Btw, as said many times 6 turns is just too much, so it's a complete out of the option. I'd still prefer a 4 turn bard more than anything else.

phoenixffyrnig wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:50 pm sn't the whole point of a strategy game to fight against your challenges, rather than ask them to be changed...?

This is a Nordic only unit. Either your opponent has chosen to go Nordic in a few TCs game, (in which case, he deserves the benefits of an otherwise expensive factory choice) or there are enough TCs in the match to play your own game without worrying too much about one individual enemy unit.

Good points. And yeah, Nordic hall is a unique type of structure, only produces nordic units. So we can say that bard is fairly restricted in terms of production. And 4 turn bard will be already balanced from view.

QuadrupoleStrat wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:02 am What do you mean for a single turn?? Herbalist action buff lasts for 2 turns. The only downside is it doesn't affect ranged. Btw, as said many times 6 turns is just too much, so it's a complete out of the option. I'd still prefer a 4 turn bard more than anything else.

No mention about +3 power, TWICE? You guys really underrate that aspect. Btw, movement buff also lasting 2 turn.
my point is you can apply those at single turn, hence the option of 1 action/turn nerf on my initial post. And still strong with extra +3 power.
I consider flexibility of herbalist as extra 1 cost, but we should put everything else to be compared with her. There is so many plus of the bard that -2 cost and all that stuff is equal to the flexibility of herbalist (with 1 action/turn) is blasphemy in my opinion.

I have addressed main issue of +3 power - boost it gives to archers and anti-mounted units (which is huge).
For melee foot units the difference is not that big.

Why not limit that attack buff to melee only units than?

makazuwr32 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:31 am Why not limit that attack buff to melee only units than?

I also like this nerf but to be truthful, it is sad to have that in. I use bards in most battles as my main support unit for archers. I use the battle song to support ranged units like longbows or slingers to annihilate siege machines like cannoneer and light armored units. I will miss that buff if this change is considered.

makazuwr32 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:31 am Why not limit that attack buff to melee only units than?

That's my proposition since I started to answer this topic.

QuadrupoleStrat wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:23 am I use bards in most battles as my main support unit for archers. I use the battle song to support ranged units like longbows or slingers to annihilate siege machines like cannoneer ...

And that is exactly why bard needs that nerf.